Profi TL vs Northwing Mustang 15 on an HKS 700e Navajo trike
Hi Peeps,
I am in the market for a faster wing. I fly a Northwing Navajo with an HKS 700e engine. Currently I fly a Manta 17 meter wing. My current wing is very docile and hands off is about 37 miles cruise. All of my hangar buddies have double surface Contour wings (by Northwing).
I am trying to make the decision between a Northwing 15 meter Mustang vs a Profi TL. My HKS 700e max horse power is 60 (only supposed to be used for upto 3 mintues during take off) and then you can go contionus upto 5800 max rpms producing 56 horse power.
Keeping this in mind, what would be a better choice. I like the double surface and speed range of a Profi TL wing but am concerned if HKS has enough power to fly this wing. And if so do you think this wing could handle two passengers with this motor and wing combination.
Northwing hands off is 47-52 miles, it doesn't have the same speed range as Profi TL but, it is made locally. What I don't like is the price at 6950.
Any guidance will be very helpful.
Regards,
Rizzy.
Comments
Hi Rizzy, i know some two seats trikes with Profi14 with Rotax 503 engine. For TL could be better more powerfull engine. R582 has similar power 64HP like your HKS and its very usefull for Aeros TL wings here.
I went from a Gibbo wing to a profi with kingpost and electric trimmer and rotax 582.
Profi is a major improvement. The profi wing is like a dreamship.
The hks will fly the profi just fine. I aerotow with a northwing 15m and it takes more power to fly the 15m mustang than the profi.
Get the electric trimmer.
Get the electric trimmer.
Get the electric trimmer.
Get the electric trimmer.
Get the electric trimmer.
Get the electric trimmer.
Trust me.
Or ask around
Get the electric trimmer.
Very interesting Garrett, I have been keeping an eye on this to see what you guys had to say about it. So if the Kinbgpost Aeros did fine, the strutted version will be even better in terms of less drag.
As for the electric trim....my Profi TL has one installed and I absolutely love it!!
Thanks folks, Jozinko the continuous output of HKS is 54hp. Thanks Garrett, my dealer sent an email to Aeros to confirm and they said and I quote;
Frank,
We have no our own experience with the HKS engine and without it it's hard to have an opinion. We feel that this engine is too weak for a Profi TL, especially at 2500 asl.
There was a customer in Finland who flew with a Profi TL and HKS, but he mostly flew alone and not at that altitude.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Aeros"
So this is my dilemma...what do I do here?
Rizzy, I see no reason why you could not fly the Profi on your trike. Garrett is absolutely correct on his advice to get the electric trimmer. You would have the ability in flight to force the wing to fly slow at a higher AoA or adjust the speed upwards. If you are concerned about the rpms that would be required for S&L flight on the Profi you can simply use the electric trimmer to dial in the rpms where you want them. It might be that at the fastest setting it will push your HKS a bit but you have complete control on neutral flying speeds with the trimmer. It may well be that you can also get the desired speed range on the Mustang 15 too with the electric trimmer but my guess is the Profi being double surface will fly faster.
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- Jozinko@Sajan
ULtrikepilotJozinko liked this
Rizzy, Cathy Montgomery indicated on TPS that she was pretty sure that Aeros was referring to 2500m not ft and that sound reasonable to me. Over in the Ukraine they think in meters not feet. 2500m is 8200ft. You do not expect to be doing much flying at 8200 do you?
Thanks Ultrikepilot, that is a very good point... :D
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- Ken@knussear
Garrett SpeeterKen liked this
I am betting your HKS flies the profi just fine.
One thought, I put my profi on a friends redback trike with a 503 messing around and it flew it 2up just fine.
They are pretty common wings too bad you don't live by me I would let you bolt mine on and have a go.
I am sure someone down in America can let you borrow one.
I love my kingposted one.
It is really fantastic. Really. I have not found a single weakness in it at all.
Buy it.
I would go kingposted with a draggy trike like yours (that is on the manufactures recommendations page).
Buy it.
You will love it.
I get 2up no problem. Decent enough STOL performance. Good power off glide. Handles turbulence better than my gibbo gear mako. Faster...and slower...thanks to electric trim.
Buy it.
Looks like Garret recommends it strongly Riz
Thank you Garrett for you valuable input. Thanks for the offer too. I have pretty much made up my mind on a Profi. But I think I have one more question for you. I am thinking on the strut Profi TL because our hangar doors are not that high over here. But I believe that will add 80 pounds or so to the wing. I think that should be ok...What do you think?
you're going to regret it
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
Wile E ScottLeo liked this
Riz,
My vote is Profi TL. I love mine but more importantly a good friend of mine flys his HKS 700 with a Profi TL. He does just fine and two up as well. It's a great combo. And yes, get the electric trim. I've got mine on order now.
The only area a Mustang 15m beats a Profi TL is takedown and setup speed. It's about an hour to setup a Profi TL from the bag. Something like 25min for a NW Mustang 15m. That adds up if you do it often.
Scott
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
RizzyWizzyLeo liked this
Thanks Wile E Scott,
Does your friend fly the HKS 700e or 700t. Would it be ok if I spoke to your friend. I am curious about the his rpms in cruise, one up, two up. the type of trike etc. My email is rizzywizzy@yahoo.com and my phone is
208-985-9895.
Do you recommend winglets with the wing, (I believe they cost additional 600 dollars...not sure if they are worth 600. They look nice though.
My trike will be parked in a hangar...once the wing is on, the only time it is coming off is if I moved.
Reb,
Why do you think that I would regret it?
Rizzy
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- Rebel@rebel777
Mike LaVergneRebel liked this
When buying a wing always talk to the experts. 2 or 3 years ago maybe longer there were two in a trike that were killed. The pilot had a trike with a HKS and everything was fine when he flew by himself. He had a tendency to get airborne and make a sharp turn to the right(cool feeling like we all know). When he went up with a heavy passenger he had a lapse in pilot skill and did the same thing, cut sharp right and they went in. Not enough power to pull threw and to close to the ground.
Cameron says the GT-5 likes two things weight and power.
Frank Dempsey will say the same thing about the TL profi. Wing is made two handle weight and needs more power.
Reb if asked directly will tell you the same thing. Before Rob Lyons was killed he had bought a HKS trike from Cameron and he always said the 503 had more torque and faster power up. You can talk about this subject all day but one must listen to those who have more experience. My two cents Mike in Wenatchee.
Riz sounds to me like reb and mike have made some very valuable points. Profi does seem to be an awesome wing. I have concidered and changes myself and i get caught up in ambigous opinions. We look up to these more exsperienced pilot . Garret is an awesome pilot as well as mike, frank, rebel. They all have something to say. What may be good for one may not be the same for others.I bought robs 503 and what they are saying is very true. Its very quick in acceleration up to power. There is so much to concider when changing wings. Just like you know ive been looking over the aeros ant. Then id love to have a double surface wing possably a discus or a combat.but then with my overweight a...s id be at the high end of wing loading. So then i wonder if i could use a solairus wing with a heavier hook in. Garrett clearly has skills flying so does mike and reb. Just not sure how much i want to delve into being a test pilot. Iam perfectly happy flying the well tested in all conditions and not having the latest, newest, fastest. Take your time, not only finding whats right for you, but find whats proven aceptably right for your abilitys.
Riz,
His name is Steve Beste and he's a great guy; very involved in the trike and light weight aviation community in VA. I'll pass your info to him this morning and hopefully he can directly address your questions. I'll stay out of the third party info business as I fly a 912 Tanarg with a Profi TL and that's not even close to what you are trying to do. I will say my GTE 582 did great with the same exact wing though. Still not an HKS though! Either way I DO NOT recommend the winglets. Those are for faster and heavier trikes. My GTE 582 didn't need them at all. It increases roll pressure and are only there to stop tip walking on faster trikes (78mph level speed and up). You will not need those for a HKS. Plus, you can always order them later if you upgrade. One of the reasons I chose a Profi TL was it's versatility. It seems to be right in the middle of trike performance; not too fast, not too slow.
Scott
Riz, let us know what Steve has to say when you get a chance.
Like Scott, my 582/Profi TL combo just rocks man. It's solid, fast, and super well built.
As for Kingpost vs struted.....pfff.....strutted all day long man. Wires are for pianos. :P Hahaha!
Thanks Scott and Leo,
Steve sent me an email and also posted the performance of a Profi TL on a bare bone Aerotrike Safari and this is what he says;
Figures are solo / 2-up:
Stall: 29 / 33 mph
Climb: 650 / 450 fpm
Take-off (paved runway, wheels off) 250 / 875 feet
Cruise: 55 mph. It's easy to pull the bar in to 65 mph, which is about the limit of what's comfortable in my open trike.
My empty weight: 488 lbs. Gross is 990.
Glide ratio 8:1
This is of course performance with an HKS that has a continuous output of 54 ponies. In terms of climb rate and take off, My Manta 17 does the same. Hands off cruise is 37 on my Manta 17 but I believe it is on the slowest setting because it was advertised 43-45 hands off with Vne 60. Now if I had a 912, or even 582 my numbers would look much better for Profi wing, maybe it might be a good idea for me to just fly my trike the way it is and possibly sell it this year and buy 912. I am not entirely sure that with these performance numbers if it is justifiable to spend another 7k. A trike upgrade might be a better way to go with that extra 7k.
Dunno Riz.....here's my specs with my 582 Buggy for comparison....
Figures are 2-up:
Stall: 38 mph
Climb: 550 fpm avg
Take-off (paved runway, wheels off) on the avg I can take off in 250 feet. (too many variables here to nail down solid numbers...alt...dens alt/Temp....wind ect)
Cruise: 65-70 mph @5500 rpm (edit w/4 blade prop)
My empty weight: 497 lbs. Gross is 992
Glide ratio (Aeros claims 12:1) I've noticed it's more like... 9:1 at best.
Very similar to what he's getting. Looks like I have a little higher cruise speed (I have electric trim), all else is pretty darn close.
It's a solid performing wing and extremely well built. I can't say one way or another which one you should go with. Sounds like the HKS handles the wing just fine by looking at the numbers. Again, you may need to adjust your flying to meet the characteristics of the wing....but that's just part of being a good pilot.