Learning to Trike
Learners and experienced pilots sharing their knowledge
Learning to Fly Q & A, tips and Suggestions
Student Pilots and people Curious about triking-- Post your questions here. The rest of us will post answers, tips and suggestions until this grows into a great resource for all trike students.
Comments
I was talking by email with a student triker who was wondering about waht type of trike to get. I wrote a response and as it got longer and more detailed, I figured other new trikers might be interested. We could post up some opinions and thoughts:
Here was the exchange:
Im currently training on a Northwing Navajo 582 with a 19 meter northwing ?
Its a pretty big wing and it tends to feel like it is bullying you a bit when the wind are gusting.
My instructor is going to be changing it out for a smaller Northwing real soon.
I would like to be set up with a trike thats good for XC.....the Tanargs look great but they are so freakin expensive.....Ive seen a few like this for example: on Barnstormers:
AIRBORNE EDGE TRIKE--ROTAX 582 • FOR SALE BY PROUD OWNER • AirBorne WindSports EDGE X Trike (Weight Shift Control) w/ Wizard 3 Wing and Rotax 582 Engine ($14,850) • 87 hours • Always hangared • Electric start • Oil injection • Dual Bing carburetors • Full cockpit fairing • Wheel pants • BRS • Instructor package • Spare seat & windshield • Gauges: Airspeed Indicator, Altimeter, Hour Meter, Tachometer, Dual Exhaust Gas Temp, Water Temperature • RAD intercom/helmet package w/ visors (2 helmets); 2008 Roadmaster Enclosed Trailer – trike & wing safely stored for short/long distance trailering ($2,200); Trike and Trailer together $15,900 • Contact Craig McDonald, Owner - located Hanover, MD USA • Telephone: 585-880-8700 . • Posted June 6, 2013 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures • Finance New Lower Rates!
Which seems reasonably priced and comes with helmets coms and a trailer to boot.
Im just not sure if the trike make and model would be considered dependable and fit for the purpose that I would like it for. ( .... would that be compared to buying a Chevy Impala?)or worse (an AMC Pacer)?
Ive seen a few of these reasonably priced so Im guessing they are fairly popular.
Then I come across one of these that I have never heard of yet but it looks like a good deal.
2000 PEGASUS QUANTUM W/TRAILER • $11,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • Fully Loaded 2-Seat Pegasus Quantum Super Sport in Great Shape with N#. Rotax 503 engine w/new electric starter, K&N filter upgrade & 3-prop rotor. Navigation, 2 Comm Helmets, Ballistic Shoot & adjustable trim for the wing (wing not incl). Training bars and rear controls make this trike easy for lessons. 523 total hours with engine rebuild at 463 hours. Trike flies beautifully, & has been stored in a custom 7' x 10' trailer since purchase. Annual inspection done within the past month & everything is running beautifully (video avail). Trike only: $9,000. Trailer only: $3,000. Both: $11,500 • Contact Cammie R. Mckenzie, Owner - located Santa Clarita, CA USA • Telephone: 206-779-0437 . • Posted May 21, 2013 • Display Specs Page • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures • Finance New Lower Rates!
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Cool you want to go XC. Have you ever tried soaring? It's addictive.
Many people fee that for serious XC the 4 -stroke (912) is a better way to go, I lean that way as well. Depends on what type of XC you want to do though-- if it includes a lot of unlandable tree or water areas, I'd lean toward 912- but then again, when we crossed 23 miles to Catalina, we climbed to 10K feet so that it didn't matter if the engine went out anyway:
No matter what you fly, you should fly as if your engine will go out at any moment (because some day(s)) it will. Rizzy has already had two engine outs.
The rumor is that both engines have an equal failure rate: the 582 will fail suddenly (seize) though, whereas the 912 will typically limp along after failure. The 506 was apparently more reliable. Two-strokes are a bit more finicky in their maintenance- watch EGT temps closely, watch for shock cooling, etc.
Carrying 2-stroke oil and mixing it on XC is an added issue. 2-strokes get poorer mileage (about 1/2 +/- GPH less)-- though their power to weight ratio is better. Two strokes cost less to rebuild but need rebuilding more often. Rebuilding is expensive. I was swayed by a site that calculated that in the long run a 912 is cheaper, in the short run a 582 is cheaper-- so it depends if you think you will put 2000 hours on your trike.
All trikes require a LOT of maintenance!
HERE's a page discussing the cost of triking, broken down as a per hour estimate. Hangar fees can actually be THE biggest over all cost.
On the ground, big wings (and trikes in general) are a pain in the butt to handle in wind. In the air, not a big deal. It's nice to float low and slow, and they're great for sight seeing, landing and climbing. I'd seriously avoid what I think is a tiny / fast wing craze-- especially if you want to do XC.
I thought the Tanarg was out of my price range as well. I initially wanted to spend about $10K ; ) -- soon realized I needed to come up with around $17K for a moderately reliable / capable machine. Then my wife rode in a small trike (she's a HG pilot as well) and her head was bent severely forward by the mast-- she swore she would never ride with me if I got an uncomfortable trike. Eventually, I saw a great deal come up on a used Tanarg 912 80HP, with fairly low hours for $35K. Although, I would have to go quite a distance to ship it home, I called immediately to make an offer. As you probably have seen by scanning the ads though, I could sell my Tanarg 850 hrs for more than I paid for it--- so, as long as I don't ball it up, I like to say that the trike is FREE ; ) Of all the XC machines I've seen, I really appreciate the Tanarg. However, there are many flavors and variations of trike out there. There is no one best trike period. They all have trade-offs, just like a Goldwing vs an Enduro. If I had to have one moto for the end of the world, the enduro would be it, period, it is overall more capable (many light 2-stroke trikes are like that)- cheaper too. The Goldwing is a bit more comfortable on long hauls. It really depends on what you want to do, your likes and needs. You'll grow to be very fond of your trike-- your life will depend on it and that's why airplanes usually get named, even by the non-superstitious. You will pat your trike on the nose and tell it what a good job it did getting you home safe.
Buying any trike new, you will lose up to 50% in the first year or so, then prices stabilize greatly.
Christopher / Big Red ( http://alltrikes.com/elgg/profile/BigRed ) does some great XC trips with his 582 Clipper. I like the Clipper-- nice machine. I flew with a 912 Clipper up to Idaho and back last year (slightly smaller gas tank)-- no probs. My trike can slow down dramatically which is VERY nice for a variety of things (safety, flying with others, sight seeing, etc).
Would you be flying XC alone, or do you have trikers nearby? Often the type of trike your friends have has a big influence on your trike-- if they have fast trikes, you will kinda want to keep up if they can't / won't slow down well. If they have low and slow trikes, they won't really be able to go with you long distance. I like flying with others ... so I'm always on the web trying to get people to get together... The closest trikers (Henry & the guys in Santa Paula) are ~ 90 minutes away by Tanarg.
If you're into motorcycling-- did you do a lot of touring? By yourself? Or you thought you would, but in reality seemed to prefer short trips. Your triking will likely follow that same pattern you generally enjoy.
XC trips take a lot of time (not just planing and prep)-- typically you will only fly about 4 hours per day (even though you'd like to be able to do more) ... you will just be too tired, and the weather often doesn't hold out long enough. That's only about 250 miles per day. So a trip 1000 miles away will take at LEAST 8 days (if you have perfect weather)- it's hard to get that time off, and permission from the wife, and friends that can do the same (and even better a ground crew to follow you). So, XC doesn't happen as much as it should. Therefore most flights are around the neighborhood. You can also tow a quick break-down trike a lot faster to a destination (for a weekend of flying at a distant location), and those trikes may not need a hangar-- ongoing savings.
Keep flying and experiencing things and thinking about it and you'll eventually decide which kind you might want.
OMG David,thank you big time for your valuable input.......I love to get the perspective of someone who has been there done that and has a few t-shirts.
Right now because I dont have the experience piece under my belt I'm my head is filled with romantic notions of wonderful trips accross the countryside, meeting new people etc......but when reality kicks in it will probably tell me a different story......like.......you just finished spending $4000 on flying lessons and you wanna spend how much on a trike??? and lets not forget that you have to hangar it, insure it, maintain it, then if I can afford it perhaps fly it a little. Maybe I should consider renting a trike to build some of that experience piece.
I had no idea that trike engines would be failing so often.....WOW.....poor Rizzy, that must have cost him a bundle to rebuild each time and thats not saying anything about the laundry factor either.
When I watch some of the videos that you or Henry or TTABS have uploaded it looks like in some of the cases if you had an engine out youd be screwed for anywhere to put down.(Thats just my "I wasnt there..I am only watching the video view")Ha Ha.
My romantic notions are telling me that I would like to see the countryside low and slow (i dont want to miss anything) but by the same token if you have to get a move on because you need to beat some weather....I'd like to be able to.
I have at least one guy, Dean Coleman that is local and has his own trike and has so far managed to get around a bit and mingle with other trikers such as Henry and perhaps yourself (down in Havasu)
We both fly out of Freedom Airpark In Lumby, BC which is an hour from where I live in Kelowna.
You say that you are 90 minutes away from Santa Paula and your other triking buddies.....where do you live? fly from?
Thanks for your impressions of different xc trikes David I really appreciate it.....this type of input really helps me wrap my head around all of the different aspects of the different trikes.
Im starting to think that a trailer and a wing that would go together and break-down easily may be the answer....at least until I could get cheaper accomodations for the trike.
I know it all seems a little premature to talking like this because I am not even licenced yet.......but I like to think ahead and when the right time comes, I will be ready to make an informed decision.
Your input is very helpful David Thank you.
Dave G.
Hey All, I need your help. I need to give a lecture on trikes to a Pilot club in LA tonight. I'm jotting down some features / advantages of trikes. Here's my list, can you guys add to it? What am I missing so far?
Motorcycles of the Sky:
Like Motorcycles- many different Flavors
Off road
Goldwing Cruiser
Music, Transponder, Glass Panel
Crotch Rocket
Mini-Bike
Soaring Trike- including Electric powered
Part 103- Ultralight
Lightsport- 2 seat
No Medical needed- sport Pilot
Immersed in the Environment / Air- More Bird-Like:
Unlimited view
Feel the air
Smell the flowers / Orange groves / Ocean
Fly with birds
Low & slow-- virtually hover over spots
Feeling wing actually in your hands
Flying like the Wright Brothers
Change the wing to suit your desires for the day
Performance
Short Field
Low & Slow
Low complexity / Easy to fly (safety)
one moving control part (mechanical- no servos, pushrods, hydraulics, etc)
that part is backed up
Full time carb heat (no loss of power)
Altitude compensated carbs
No rudder- easy to coordinate turns
Feet can now control throttle & Brake, and ground steering
Cost
$12K to $90K ($25K about avg used)
MoGas (will run AvGas), about 3.5 GPH or LESS
Put 3 or more in a hangar
Or fold up and store in a trailer at your house (easy to work on)
Can do much of your own maintenance, less to maintain, newer
Can be Experimental Licensed (add modern gear at will)- ELSA
Can be Special Lightsport S-LSA-- can use to instruct
Towable: folds in about 1 hour +/-
Bring your motorhome AND your plane
Safety:
Ease of flight- forgiving, positive stability
Strong wing (6G Positive 3G negative)
Low complexity
Foot Throttle- Go around without removing hands/eyes from controls
Feather landings with ease
Low speed- Less kinetic energy (UL about 1/10 of a car)
Helmets
3 or 4 point harness
Rotax 912
STOL: Short Field / Off Road performance gear
Can do steep take-offs and landings
Can mix into & break out of very tight pattern
3 Wheel disk brakes
Will not spin, gentle stall with obvious warnings- can fly in stall
Easy to X-wind land
Most in US are BRS equiped
Yes you can read a Map in the cockpit
Part 103- Ultralight
No more than 254 lbs
Level Speed not more than 55 kts (63)
Stall speed not more than 24kts
Not more than 5 gallons fuel
Not more than 50 HP
Daylight only
No flight physical required
No controlled airspace without prior permission
Lightsport:
Experimental (E-LSA) versus Special (S- LSA)
Maintenance
There is no HP requirement for part 103.
The main advantage of part 103 is that there is absolutely no requirement for flight training or the need to have any aeronauticle knowledge at all. :-)
Some trikes are really comfortable (speaking from someone who routinely dozes off on long flights).
You get a lot of attention when you land, lots of questions during pre- and post-flight. (that could be a positive OR a negative!)
Thanks Charlie & Janet !!! Nice pics too. I summarized Charlie's as No Paperwork!!!!!! ;) When you say no HP requirement, I guess I never considered that, but as long as the overall weight was less than 250 lbs, you could have a giant engine and tons of fuel (or battery equivalent)-- is that right?
Let me add to what Charlie said. One key advantage to part 103 is no license required, biannual review, and no paper work / red tape with FAA whatsoever. I will likely start an "advantage / disadvantages" section within the Ultralight group before long and get input from all those that currently participate as part 103 pilots. I have my ideas but I'm sure others do too.
No, there is a requirement for paperwork to fly part 103 trikes. The paperwork consists of carrying a copy of part 103 rules with you when you fly. There is no requirement to have any training, and there is no requirement to have any aeronautical knowledge.
Looks like your prices are a bit high - just adding up what's on barnstormers today Used ELSAs are running from 7999 to 45000 with an average of 17909! I would guess this is much cheaper than GA
OK, I stand corrected. I was thinking of paper work related to an N-numbered aircraft, SP license, or even carry a log book, etc.
Hm, I didn't know that Charlie-- the only thing I carried (usually) when flying HG was my USHGA (now USHPA) card. I thought that was just for liability insurance purposes, didn't realize there was a requirement-- no authority ever asked anyone I knew (Wallaby, and other sites would ask to see your rating card though). I didn't have a Ham Radio license for the longest time until I got chastised a few times in the air by some Hambones-- then just went radio silent (catch me if you can). Always figured if they somehow were able to track me down on the ground I would just refuse to let them see my equipment and plead the 5th-- we eventually did get Ham licenses though. But ... for all intents and purposes, the requirement to carry a single piece of paper is as minimal as the "requirement" to put on pants before flying-- NOT a major obstruction / hassle before flying ;) Stuff that scrap in your harness one time, and you are DONE with paper work !!!
Regarding "No training" required, I feel a little different. It is true that that is the letter of the law, but people who think they are going to grab an old (purposefully retired / unsafe) HG off of eBay and then with no instruction just "jump" off a hill-- are crazy- and people do that!!! So, in my mind, "No Training" just means that it is relatively free of government influence, but still an essential part of flying (and keeping the sport safe and positive image- crashes, deaths, airspace violations reflect very poorly on a GREAT sport). I also benefited immensely from the Mentor System that has been basically initiated in HG-- when I got my Hang II and was allowed to go out on my own, it was my friend Bill Hartwick who I was "assigned" to and took me under my wing and kept me safe, alive, and having fun by really teaching me what HG was about and how to do it.
http://alltrikes.com/elgg/file/view/6797/bill-hartwick#.UwOxVPZDFKA
Everything is appreciated-- in triking too, even this site, we are all helping mentor each other. I know I have learned a lot from you guys, and I hope I have contributed positively to the sport as well.
Thank you guys! ULT I will forward you my talk / points when I'm done.
Towable:
With my single surface wing…
At Salton, I timed solo setup: out of the 20' trailer and ready to fly = 25 minutes.
Back in the trailer solo: folded and tied down/secured = 16 minutes.
Gotta love all that space for the other toys too!
Wow, you are quite fast KLP. Me take it about 30-40mins. Complette settings - ready to fly and unpacking - ready to towing home. But I have a double surface Aeros Profi wing. Upper surface = 22 rods, lower = 10 for both sides.
Thx for catching those prices Ken! Wow KLP, you're the fastest I've seen! Great to see you at Salton-- hope you post some pictures, & it was great trading rides in our trikes. I really liked the low & slow-- captures the essence of the sport I think.
I changed "Towable" to "Trailerable" to avoid confusion with aerotowing ;) Also, you can store your trike in an enclosed trailer, or on an open trailer in your garage-- Cheap, easy and convenient (especially to work on).
What's about the slowest stall speed in a light trike? (mine is not light, but slow for GA at 32 - 39 mph).
Does anyone know where that video is of a very light trike, single seat I believe, with a huge SS wing doing nearly 1 foot take offs and landings?
The prices in Oz regarding Rotax engine maintenance are slightly higher. Around the $5k mark for a 582 2-stroke (300 hours on non-Airborne trikes (400 if Airborne)) & $20k for 2000 hrs on a 912. That's 6 2/3rd 2 stroke change-overs/TBO's to 1 x 912 (4 stroke) or about $34,000 without labour charges. Usual story of upfront investing = lower ongoing charges. Knowing these calculations and realistically anticipating annual flying hours before purchasing a trike may mean that stretching the budget to a 912 could save $14k - or a mental shift of reducing the purchase price by $14k... That's without factoring in 4 stroke fuel efficiency, speed & thrust capability and extended fly time per tank...
Stall speeds for the north wing Mustang 3 SS wings 19 m = 25 mph, 17 m = 27 mph, 15m = 30 mph