Should Trike wings be rated just like Paraglider and Powered Paraglider wings?
Hi all,
While we discuss the reason behind John Farmer's accident. Many pilot were of the opinion that the cause of the accident was lack of transition training and the fact that just because you are capable of flying one wing doesn't mean you can handle a more advanced wing. So with that in mind I wanted opinion of the Trike pilots.
As you all may know that Paragliding and Powered Paragliding wings have ratings. And despite the fact that as far FAA is concerned sports like Powered Paragliding are under FAR 103 rules, so their is no license required.
However because the wings have ratings, it helps a newcomer and even experienced pilot to make the wing purchase decision. So,
1) How do you as pilots feel about a wing rating system?
2) Is it practical?
3) Do you think it will help Trike pilots?
4)What challenges do you see in implementing such a system?
Some while ago we had a blog discussing if Spiral recovery should be part of Practice Standard Maneuvers and with Pilot vote and opinions we were able to add that to the Practical Standard Maneuvers.
My hope with this blog is to see if we could reach a consensus on this topic and hopefully take a practical measure so no more lives are lost.
Regards,
Rizwan
Comments
- 1 like
- RizzyWizzy@Rizzy
MontyRizzyWizzy liked this
Hey joz, don't forget that tussocks is 'upside down, look on any globe of the world, nz is on the bottom, so extra blood would tend to pool in parts that shouldn't be 'flooded', this is both a blessing and a curse,
at his birth his midwife said' oh shit' and slapped his mom instead of his butt . Still, apart from his occasional foray into the 'dark side', it WAS accidental, dark pasture, black sheep, etc.......could of happened to anyone, baaaaaaaaaa, and 'dolly' doesn't remember much, there was wine involved. It may have been chinese 'dragon' beer, empty bottles of both were found, together with a half chewed 'bouquet of red roses' . We'll never know what went on in that meadow, when asked dolly just rolls her eyes, and shakes her tail. Baaaai'llnevertell.............
Jozz i almost choked on my chille cheeze frito reading tussock and montys paragraphs . Eating corn chips and reading is dangerous!
- 1 like
- white eagle@wambleska
Montywhite eagle liked this
Hey jozz, the subject kinda' got side-tracked, and predictably no grading system of wings will evolve, BUT we squeezed some valuable info from our own 'guru' , on the behavior of wings when being turned. Don't tell him i said it but he's one smart 'sheep-wrangler'.
Hmmm, now I know WE, doing anythink during reading articles above is more safe... For sure I put it into translator... aaaand? coffee sprayed out of my nose... my colleagues laughed a lot!
But you have to give a honor to Tussock...because I remember how hard is up side down landing there... :)
OK I will sit and quiet wathch to this conversation... :)
Perfect @Tussock ! We should get some stickers made up. I wonder if we should start warning golfers of their inherent danger?
On , a serious note ken of course you are right ,pilots should be warned of inherit dangers of styles of wings.
How we go about doing that is subject to debate! I would hate more regulation than what exists now.like tussock suggested a visable sticker to pilots this wing requires advanced training. And iam not sure exactly what manufacturers do now! Getting a sports pilot licence surely is not a document of knowelege in understanding advanced aerodynamical values of wing shapes and flight characteristics.
I personally see know problem in a blog as you suggested on different wings really. I am a big advocate of communication! Kinda like the skier at the unload sign who ask me to slow the chair down at the unload sign. Then gets mad why i didnt slow the chair down after they tumble off the ramp! Uh duh it takes a bit to slow a mile long chairlift. Its all realitive!
Jozzinko so cool a laugh on three continants. Cool
Ken, danger from 'swinging' ? Or from 'errant' balls, kind of interconnected. Yea on the warning stickers, to golfers, 'take extra care while swinging, remember your balls must not hit your neighbor!,
WE, thank goodness someone remembered rizzy's intent, with this blog. Even if a wing grading list never comes to pass, at least the word is out, some wings DO require more than average instruction, especially those that can readily reach 'unrecoverability'. I personally will pay more attention to 'coordinating' my turns, i think i may have got blase over the years, only flying 'granny-grade' wings, i only fly locally, for fun, if i feel the need for challenge i'll take up golf, that's where the real excitement is, evidently!
Hey ken, ttabsocks sent me a private email he wants to know why you use your grannies picture as your avatar??
- 1 like
- Jozinko@Sajan
white eagleJozinko liked this
Monty ken iam 100% sure my turns in golf are uncordinated slips.
- 1 like
- ULtrikepilot@ULtrikepilot
TussockULtrikepilot liked this
Dear Admin,
Currently, Monty is trying to get a date with Ken's granny, Ken has taken up golf after Monty said it's good for wife-swapping, WE is drinking beer on the job and pushing skiers of lifts, Joz has taken up snorting caffeine, Tussock said something and was taken seriously, we all think 'training' means subverting your country's war effort by derailling boxcars of soldiers, WE's sense of fashion includes wearing uncoordinated slips while golfing, there's a trail of cud-slimed rose petals and grass clippings leading to the passport office and a global shortage of virgin wool... and over on the dark side they're saying nice things about each other's photos.
What's happening to the world???
I'm off flying for a couple of hours... you guys behave yourselves while I'm gone. See Monty for instructions on how to do that.
tubsocks, all true, except for the wooly virgin. Your buddy deano? Hints that Moreno Hara, the last 'unsullied' one may be next! You've given me little wiggle room, you fixed every thing. What a swami! ( kens granny says thanks for putting her picture on grandson kens dating site) kens a little miffed, she's getting more offers than he does!
Hey guys... it have to be a very good material what you smoke :D
- 1 like
- Monty@montystone
white eagleMonty liked this
It was sloviskia plum brandy jozzy. I couldnt drink it so i thought id see how it smoked! Burns nicely great for starting fires on thoughs cold winter nights . Nice you can injoy yourselves on alltrikes we would all be in front of a fireing squaud on the dark side!
Now I gave a shot of an apricot brandy, beautiful taste, beautiful smell only 52%... an replacement fuel for trike :)
Monty, no worries about the intent of this blog. Tussock, White Eagle, Ken, Jozinko and your stories and input is quite entertaining.
I exploded in a laugh where you said and I quote:
" At his birth his midwife said' oh shit' and slapped his mom instead of his butt". That is hilarious.
:-)
- 1 like
- ULtrikepilot@ULtrikepilot
TussockULtrikepilot liked this
Rizzy, apparently Monty was born at home as his parents were keen on a home birth. However, as soon as they saw him they were rushed to hospital.
As an aside, almost, the PG rating system relates to how wildly a wing reacts to various types of turbulence-induced collapses, and the degree of pilot input needed to reinflate the wing after a collapse. The whole rating system is controversial, as it doesn't take into account the resistance of a wing to collapses and is only loosely related to safety. There are constant calls to improve or replace the rating system. As always, it's the skills and decisions of the pilot that decides how safe or otherwise is their flying.
Tussock, that is funny. I didn't know that the Paraglider wing rating doesn't take collapse resistance in account. I use to think that EN-A or DHV 1 ratings also covered the resistance of a wing to collapses.
Actually, some of the EN-D and in particular Civic Competition Class wings - which are the most demanding wings to fly, requiring constant active piloting - very rarely suffer collapses. When they do, though, the result is dramatic and demands a lot of the pilot to straighten things out - that's what the rating is all about. And there's a similarity with trikes - the trike that's least demanding of a pilot's ability to boat about the sky isn't necessarily the safest. I think that the difference between a perceived 'ease of use' (which might be generally be considered as: single surface, slower trimmed, low aspect, high twist, gobs of washout, more dihedral), and actual 'safety' (pitch stability, roll dynamics, greater inertia and reluctance to tip stall in turbulence, penetration ability etc.) is what makes your original question such a bear to answer.
A strong case can be made for faster wings being safer in the real world: the shorter span, higher wing loading, better tracking, longer float in ground effect etc. are all desirable features, and a pilot trained from the outset on such a wing has a noticeably more capable aircraft at their disposal. But does 'noticeably more capable' mean safer? Not if you always fly safely within the limits of what you're flying. But what if...?
And while I think it's easy to match a pilot's preferred flying habits to a certain class of wing, we can't tell what a pilot's taste is. There is a popular wing with a good safety record whose roll rate is abysmal in my eyes and I loathe flying it. For others it's the wing of choice. WE doesn't like my wing, and for a very good reason: he simply doesn't like how it feels, and no other reason is required. And ultimately, a pilot who has learned his craft thoroughly and exercises sound judgement will be safe regardless of what he flies.
- 1 like
- Tussock@Tussock
white eagleTussock liked this
Well thats kinda like compared to tussock would most likely fly with me although he might have to slow up a bit. But he would stand far off when i was swinging a golf club and probably wear a helmet. But we would both be satisfied with the wapiti dinner and the trout slayer and moose drool ale!
Not that i dont like the arrow as much as i dont trust my own ability to make mistakes! You have to remember iam the guy who launched my friend holding down a 8 man rubber life raft on top of my hang glider rack while driving to a lake for a party. And i was bragging about my knowlege of basic aerodynamics at the time!!!
- 1 like
- Ken@knussear
MontyKen liked this
WE moose drool ale is a bit akin to the skottish ' kilt-lifter' ale , by prescription only.
Laughing till my belly hurts monty
Must have lamb's milk in it...
Gotta love Moose drool - It'll lift yer kilt fer sure.
Ken did you try trout slayer if not ill bring you some!