crayonboxAirborne XT912 Cruze and Streak III, Outback 582 Streak IIb
Dual 110+ Solo 150+ (as of 1-Sept-2013)
Hervey Bay YHBA, Maryborough YMYB, Pacific Haven YPAC, Childers YCDS, Tewnatin Noosa YNSH, Caloundra YCDR, Tangalooma YTGA, Watts Bridge YWSG, Biggenden YBIN, Caboolture YCAB, Gympie YGYM, Orchid Beach YOKB, Bundaberg YBUD, Gayndah YGAY, Monto YMTO, Kingaroy YKRY
Private: Nikenbah, Wanggoolba, Miramar(Takura), Lake Barambah, Susan River, The Dimonds (Bill Price)
Here is SkyVector showing some flying I have completed as of and including CrossCountry NAVs endorsement in March 2014.
Not How I was taught to land...#1
I am not comfortable with the way this pilot flies.
Comments
I'm not sure I see it. The first thing I thought of though was the moment arm/yaw that that camera might produce out there, and hoping s/he had tested it before putting a passenger in. Looked to me like once around a right hand pattern-- must've been a bit on the low side. There was some turbulence. I thought it was interesting, that like @Charlie Porter pointed out recently, the wing really didn't move much versus the horizon, the carriage was doing all the moving- I expected a bumpy movie out there on the wing tip.
What are your thoughts Crayon?
OK, I went back and looked at the landing specifically because of your title "Not how I was taught to land.. #1" He does come in rather steep (which is the way hang gliders do (no engine, gotta have speed/authority for wind gradient and turb). But, it is a single surface wing, and they can do that better and not retain a lot of speed after round out. Also, I think the fish-eye kind of makes it look steeper. Round out was abbreviated and s/he was still going fast with bar only to about neutral at touch down-- it looked like it could've been a bit rowdy, in which case that might be more reasonable.
I just thought it looked like the round out was too early/high making the trike slow, and he hadn't held off. Maybe be the camera optics like you say. However, the control bar doesn't make it all the way to the front tube during hold off as I was taught to do - and that's in both of these videos.
I had another look, and it seems the optics are playing a role in making it look too slow.
I've seen people become very adamant (mean and nasty even) that the control bar MUST TOUCH THE FRONT TUBE on landing. The reasons are very logical 1) the trike will be at it's slowest, and speed in a crash is what kills and 2) if the trike has slowed past stall, it can't take off.
I agree with those thoughts in principle however in practice I rarely touch the bar to the tube on landing-- only if conditions are butt smooth and I'm in the mood to play with it.
The other day I probably shouldn't have been playing with it (for two reasons, one I was landing at Oceano a windy turbulent short strip on the beach and two I had a passenger) but I was mulling this whole thing over and went ahead and did a long nice float, the trike eventually greased the asphalt sweetly but before I was at full bar out, had about 1-2 inches left. The trike did not really want to fly anymore when it greased down and was slowing down quickly will all 3 tires down so I pushed the remainder of the 1.5" out on the ground. A gust came and popped us back in the air about a foot and a half, with the aid of ground effect, it got us flying again. I figured no biggie, I was planning a touch and go anyway so I dropped the hammer on the throttle, the engine roared but it took a while for thrust to develop, and airspeed to develop from that. Meanwhile, the gust subsided but at min controllable airspeed we were veering somewhat to the right. Not badly, but enough for my passenger to say this is not good. The gust let back, the trike had just left ground effect and was settling through it, touched down a little awkwardly and going across the runway, the engine still wide open for takeoff then launched the trike into the air and we were off.
OK, I admit not great technique on bar to the tube, but the trike landed the first time when it was the right time (my passenger a pilot / A&P agreed, felt very nice and the right time to land with the right authority of control). The whole problem I have with the insistence of bar must always touch the tube is that that technique prolongs the vulnerable period between good control, marginal control and stall. A gust, with the aid of ground effect lifted me back into marginal control-- so instead of pushing out, I should've pulled in as usual. Here's the kicker question though-- when do you taxi with the bar full out? If you don't why not. If you do, do you taxi at near 30MPH with the bar full out, if not why? Do you taxi at even 5 or 15 mph with bar full out (certainly way way below stall speed, and slow)? If not, why not? If you do, let me know why?
So, anyway, having been trained as a HG pilot we always came in hot for authority. We did then have to pass through that vulnerable period (longer in a sleek double surface), but we DECISIVELY killed it with a radical flare (the 7" gentle movement of the trike flare is nothing compared to the 3-4 foot heave of the HG flare.) I learned that control authority was your friend in rowdy conditions, and not having an engine, it's all you've got to get your through wind gradient.
Revisiting the logical reasons above ( 1: the trike will be at it's slowest, and speed in a crash is what kills and 2: if the trike has slowed past stall, it can't take off.) 1) Is it really speed that kills in a crash, or is not crashing (by maintaining some control speed) in the first place better? 2) ... it can't take off on it's own, but the wind can accelerate it off, briefly and at minimal control speed .. I'll add 3) trikes have suspension just as our cars do. Not to say that that's an excuse for testing the suspension, but if we drove really really slow in a car we wouldn't use the car's suspension either.
Just my personal thoughts. The bar out to the tube is the sweetest, highest form of technique in calm conditions, and that in and of itself is a great reason to learn it.
XCT, Agreed. The bar full out is good for calm air, but must be brought back in once safely and fully on the ground to prevent a gust lifting into the air.
I have been taught to continue hold-off at 6 inches above and prevent the wheels touching the runway (don't land!) for as long as it can, until it finally gives up and stalls onto the runway. This means continual inputs to the wing to remain at that height. The slowest speed is when the bar touches the front tube. Speed is reduced to the slowest landing speed possible, and reduces the possibility of a gust lifting us into the air again (due to our air/ground speed). The bar should also be brought in to prevent a gust lifting us back into the air as this would be bad.
It took me quite a few hours to get this right :-] It's too late and no point to push the bar to the tube when you are already safely 3 wheels on the ground.
I wouldn't disagree with you or your instructor.
But :) do you ever taxi around at 30mph or so with the bar full out? Maybe just for a second?
No I don't taxi around at 30mph or so with the bar full out, or at anytime time, as a gust could flip us. I taxi with the bar at neutral or even wing down slightly into the wind.
Is your point that the norm shouldn't be to have the bar-to-tube fully at final touch-down?
Hey Crayon, I really wasn't disagreeing with your thoughts or your instructor. I guess just adding some food for discussion and a thought that having a quiver of different techniques may be the best of any approach.
hey xc et al, the discussion is 'as zee germans say 'ferry interestink', but 'shdupid'. (not really!). some 14 dog-years ago i was naive enough to post a video of my re-attachment to terra- gravel following my rotax unexpectedly, though predictably,' dying the death' awaiting all engines lacking oil pumps and valves, etc. well, the touch-down went quite well, most of the parts i took off with were still present, (though i did omit turning the switches off untill AFTER the arrival.) bad monty! anyhow, my chief detractors, the biggest, and second biggest ego-s in the 'floppy-wing' fraternity chastised me for NOT pushing the control-whatsit fully up-agin the down-thingy during the event. also, accusing me of being nervous! (i'm way too limey to be nervous!) (stiff upper lip etc). i won't bore the few readers still awake during this diatribe with the ensuing 'war of words' but my final ' oh yeah?' was' theres more than one way to 'skin a cat' (dead one,i hope!) or to' plonk down' into un-known geography and atmospheric (ie wind) conditions, so a bit of extra velocity can actually help, especially when the physical input your pathetic limbs are required to make won't be 'backed up' by the option of ' i'll go around again and do it better'. (cos the big fan that had been keeping the pilot cool ain't turning no-more!)
'
Monty, I remember that excruciatingly well !! You done good and we have your hilarious posts here now as proof!!!
Monty you write well. (Interestink). Thanks for your contribution.