Hi guys! Its very interesting debate here. Lucian, I absolutely agree with you about technique of landing. Every landing, which I teach my students, like as emergency landings. Because we usually have free running engine about 500ft. Next we are flying down - gliding, about 15-20km/h faster than the cruising speed is. Next we made an transient arch and we are waiting for deceleration about 20cm over the ground. This is a standard landing procedure in our country. Im teaching my students for all weather. Against the wind, crosswind and down wind too. Then nobody is extreme surprised when his engine stopped. Because everyone knows what he have to do. And my teaching procedure, about feeling high and speed over the runway is similar as your. We are flying circuits like as flat "eight". Then a student can to feel his flight against the wind and down wind too.
About a trikes. Is very good when front wheel is "in towed" configuration, its self stabilisation position. For all reason, is better if a students foot are strongly put on the pedals. The first touch down may go to the side, especially by a crosswind, next he can modified his direction if he decelerated on ground. Main, rear wheels are setting straight. Better is, if the rear wheels are directed a liiiittleee front side out. The trike is very stabil - autostabil. My father made all his trikes with the V wheels direction and towed front wheel configuration.
Lucien, very private question for you: Are your forefather from Czechoslovakia? Your family name is very known here.
Thanks for the reply Lucian - I've since cured my evils, and got a trike that is far more balanced. However I think speed is a relative term on this. It really doesn't require coming in with "excessive speed", just with more than the design will handle. As I mentioned, some trikes more prone to this than others, and It might interest you to know that the manufacture must be aware of this as they now sell a "retrofit kit" that fixes the very problem I mentioned.
Here is a link and the description
"Steering Dampener Retrofit Kit · for light sport aircraft
North Wing has a new steering dampener with adjustable resistance, and can be installed on your older 2-place trike. The dampener will greatly reduce the front-end shimmy when landing fast or in crosswinds.
The dampener will mount on either a Navajo or under the fairing of the Apache. The steering dampener is standard equipment on new Scout XC and Sport X2 trikes, and really helps landing control."
Thanks for the reply Ken and from what you sent I see what you mean about the makers. You would not generally find that on a British, German, Italian, French or Australian manufactured trike, it would have been designed correctly at the start and not passed through to production until it was correctly made. A dampener can help to keep a wheel more stable for those pilots that have loose feet/legs, but it should not be sent out to retrofit to help mask a design flaw, in my mind anyway. It is one thing to offer something as an aid (because some overseas trike makers, who have a well designed, non shimmy nose wheel also offer dampeners) but quite another matter to offer something in an attempt to reduce a problem in the original design.
There is a particular degree of angle of rake and amount of trailing link that goes into a properly designed nose wheel assembly as well as how and where it is placed on the base tube or Keel of the trike. The same goes for the amount of angle (toe-in / toe-out) of the main wheels, this designed in angle actually helps the trike to keep upright if it goes onto two wheels sideways. It helps steer the aircraft back into a line that will plop it back down onto all three wheels when tipped onto two wheels, either side.
When I was suggesting that no proper trike maker would willfully design a nose wheel that would cause a shimmy I had in mind how overseas trike makers handle the design, I was not thinking about US based makers. I am not sure, but suspect the US based makes may not pass the certification requirements of most of the overseas trike maker's countries requirements for safety standards, I could be wrong (to be politically correct) but I doubt it. I appreciate your efforts in sending the info Ken.
I believe that a properly aligned trike will travel straight down the runway without a retrofit kit or feet on the front forks. I will demonstrate this on video as soon as the weather clears in central PA. I intend to make it one of my first videos of the season.
I don't agree with the "trailing arm" design. I've seen too many trikes and gyro-copters out there with this design. They all have bungees or some other design to help them travel straight down the runway. I know North Wing designs their trikes this way. They are the people offering a retrofit kit. One of my flying partners has an older Maverick trike. His forks have thick bungees attached to them to keep the front fork straight. I don't agree with this design except for use on a shopping cart.
As a kid, did you ever ride your bicycle without out hands? "Look mom. No hands". You could do it. I did it all day long. I could even make turns with it without touching the handle bars.
Now flip those handle bars around on that old Sting Ray with the banana seat and sissy bar. Make it so the forks are pointed backwards and the handle bars are pointed away from you. Try letting your hands off the handle bars and see how fast the bike goes into a turn. Go real fast and your front wheel will start to shimmy like a bad caster on a shopping cart.
I wont argue too much with anyone here. I will demonstrate this on video soon and I will show you how much I like my trike.
"...so thanks for the imput on when you should add sufficiant power on landing. weak or marginal turbulance i see no need to add power i just like to come in with a little more energy is this still correct?
Spot on White Eagle, in weak or marginal turbulence there is no need to add any power, you simply dead stick it in all the way. All hang glider pilots know that dead stick is the only way to land and I starting hang gliding back in about 1972 when I lived in the Austrian Alps. We taught our selves back then and learned from the mistakes the dead were making prior to their demise. Scary to look back on what we were throwing ourselves off a mountain strapped to.
You add power to give yourself a more responsive wing and have the bar in a tiny bit all the way to the point of flare. The tiny bit of bar in also helps you pop up in case of hitting a down draft right close to the ground in rough air conditions and keeping the power on somewhat also reduces the time it takes for the engine and prop to spool up and give you thrust if you need full power at any point prior to touch down. Scott Johnson is one of those very good instructors on my list so you were in good hands with him.
Oh darn now I forget but I think it was Ken that wrote:
"...i was reamed a new' exhaust port' by the self-appointed guru-in-chief of trikedom, and self annointed 'dark side cop', who accused me of not flaring and that the ONLY way to land is with the control tube up against the down tube. my wing, a12m cosmos quits wanting to fly long before hitting the down tube.(power off)..."
I have flown the 12m Cosmos quite a bit as well as their 15m wing and both are very nice handling wings, though the 12m does require a little getting used to and sometimes the neutral bar position is going to be in a different position than you may have been used to. I do understand though why your guy on the dark side, where ever that may be, had stated the full bar out position because that is how I teach and that is how I almost always (99.9%) land a trike, including the Cosmos with either 15m or 12m wing on it.
When I was teaching too many student would extend their arms on landing and leave it at that, thinking they were at full flare. Fully extended arms is NOT a flare by any stretch of the imagination. I would tell them that the control bar (correct terminology [not - control tube]), in tiny increments, should be extended or pushed out towards the compression strut (correct terminology [not - down tube]) until it touched and if from their position they had fully extended arms and were still not there, then they should lean their body forward until it DID touch the compression strut because that is when a full flare at the least amount of air speed was achieved and most likely gave you a touch down with no chance of ballooning back up, even with a slight bump of a landing and also made sure you were not too fast to cause any wheel shimmy. For this reason I always told my students to prepare for landing by sitting upright, they may have slouched a little while flying, tighten their seat belt, wiggle their legs to be sure the nose wheel was straight and that the brake was off, check the choke and hand throttle positions and then settle in to the job at hand, landing.
So in a nutshell, it is always best to perform a landing with the control bar right up against the compression strut at the very last moment of flight as the main wheels gently touch or kiss the ground.
Just to be clear here, assuming conditions allow for this type of landing of course.
No that was not Ken who said that, and I'm so glad we don't have that kind of long-winded "Experts" who oh by the way are selling something here at this site. The types who come down very heavy on others as if only they were touched by the triking gods to dole out advice-- and in doing so squash discussion and make others fear to ask questions for fear of either being embarrassed in front of said self-appointed trike god, or for having trike god insult their instructor, mother, whatever as they describe how they walk on water etc.
I myself do not always land at the slowest possible speed. Sometimes I land a little faster. I don't land at high speeds though-- no reason, but I will definitely put the wheels on the ground at above stall speed in certain conditions. I have heard said trike-god and do not agree and for specific reasons. I tailor both the take off style and landing style to both the conditions of the runway (soft, short, hard, rocky) and the weather (calm, cross, gusty, all over the place, violent (and yes I have landed in violent conditions (where Jets were radioing in about how hard it was)-- hope not to have to again- my bad, big mistake, but ..), etc). IMHO slower is typically better, but super slow is not ALWAYS the best.
Wayne... I understand what you are saying but a bicycle design and shopping cart with 4 wheels is not quite the same as a trike design with a pusher engine for thrust. If you get behind a trike and push it from the prop hub it should track straight and slight trailing arm nose wheels will do this and won't shimmy as you go faster, at least not the British and European and OZ designs that I have flown. There is one exception here, the Air Creation nose wheel on all the 2-seaters prior to the Tanarg, they would not run straight if you pushed them from the prop, however, they did not have a wheel shimmy problem at speed either. The Medway Raven trike for example, a British design, had a trailing arm nose wheel design and you could push it all over the place and have no one in it and it would run straight and never had a tendency to shimmy, so not all trailing arm design react as you have stated Wayne. Which models were you referring to and I assume you have tested them to know they would shimmy?
Not sure if you were referring to me or not in your comments but I want to assure everyone that I do not intend to scare anyone away nor make anyone afraid to ask a question or make comments. There is mis information out there that comes up from time to time and there are things being done that should not in trike flying. If someone states that they are landing fast and they have been taught to do this then it is a valid statement to suggest they were not taught properly.
You are quite correct that there are many different ways to take off and land dependent on conditions and runway surfaces but to go into every scenario would be pointless and far too time consuming on any trike list. A good instructor should know about, discuss and demonstrate all the various scenarios as well as fly a student in all sorts of conditions to give them experience of what that feels like and how to handle the trike as well as what to do to keep them safe. If they do not they should go back to instructor school.
I want to assure everyone that this place is always open to fair discussion and though I may not be one to flower things, I value all opinions and welcome any discussions on any topic I may be involved in. If anyone feels I am overstepping the mark please let me know. I have never called myself a trike God and don't know of anyone else who thinks this so hopefully that was not aimed at me. However, everyone is free think what they like.
Regarding selling something, I have been on this site for a good while and have not been selling anything. The topic being discussed, that of landings, is something that is covered in my book and I don't see anything wrong with mentioning that. No one is being pushed into anything so I see no reason for you to be upset about that, which I assume you are, otherwise I don't see a reason for mentioning it. Now I hope the we can go back to the discussions at hand.
we just about talked this to death but what a great interchange of ideas! great to hear so many varied landing protocols. i may be wrong but i try to adjust my landing-de-jour to suit the conditions and or my mood. i'll sometimes deliberately take-off and land down-wind to re-experience the difference. years ago when flying tail-draggers we would sometimes land 'wheel' ldgs, ie on mains then bleeding off speed to let the tail wheel down, other landings were full stall 'squats' on all three wheels at once, reducing the roll out. rather than dogmatically demanding that EVERY ldg be full stall, lowest possible air speed, with the control BAR (hey lucian, isn't a bar solid with no hole in the center? if it has a long hole down it's middle it becombes a tube!) (gotcha!) up agin the front strut wouldn't it be better for all trike pilots to experience different surfaces and methods, i.e. slow lds min airspeed, fast lds, not 60mph! stall plus 20%, dirt, gravel, sand, hard surface etc, cos you NEVER know what the future holds! i posted a video here of a crash i had in 'o6 during which i HAD to land at min airspeed in nasty brush, with very little chance of a roll-out when my crank broke a bearing, sure, in the grainy video you can see my control thingy was up agin the down whatsit, until gravity won then i pulled the 'bar' into my gut to minimise damage to monty! during the ensuing rollover i could have been scratch-up if i'd still had the bar all the way out at 'crash down'. a 'hangy' friend of mine broke BOTH arms in a less than perfect landing , i don't know how he managed to pee, i avoided him till he had healed! there is a limit to brotherly love! monty ps the video is called..... ' My movie 2006 crash part one'....... 75 days ago it's nasty quality i only had a tape corder at the time and had to aim a digital at the tv screen, thus the quasi moon scape! it may be of interest to those of you planning a trike crash , i don't remember if the sound track is functioning, but my floundering around in the brush sounded exactly like crackling of brush on fire, causing me to egress smartly and run away!run away! (monty python's military strategy!)
yes i remember that video monty scary it was and it was you that got bit by the dark side dog yup i had my fill of that got so i was afraid to post there or really didnt enjoy goin there as well. i think so far we have a much better and orderly thread here on all trikes. small disagreements i dont think are so deroggitory kinda nessisary for learning and opinnions do crash from time to time. but i think it was rizzys intent to bring out some of are more distinguished members here to offer there opinions and advice. scince this landing of his was quite awhile ago. thanks riz i cruze u tube looking for videos that inspire me as well as crash videos so i can increase my intuintional abilitys. one pilot here that ive been dying to see join alltrikes for a while and iam a member of his video log for about 3 years is wayne. i finally asked a friend kevin s if he could get him to join. i always felt that his videos were a good model to follow for people interested in this sport.and c burg i remember from the earlier days and the begginings when triking was just getting a foot hold.storys in ushga magazine of guys messing around with wheels engines and hang glider wings.and jeff with hugh amounts of exsperiences and absolutly wonderfull videos to inspire us with .xc whom iam very proud to call a true friend and shares his love for this sport and would give you the shirt off his back to help you north to south on the west coast.ken and his love of triking always there to help whom iam looking very forward to meet. and joe ul whom iam also very glad to call a friend and the calls just to chat about are exsperiences in hang gliding and are new found love of par 103. lucian who has taken the time to adress us here on landing sequence and ive heard fine things said about his instructional abilitys in many circles.jozinko who has mastered the english languge to get involved with his friends across the sea and offer us advice and show us the remarkable achievements in slovakia . and the incredible hospitality and involvement of yft whom we are so lucky to have him and his crew of mates sharing here.if only we learn weather were cfis examiners newbies wanabees to be more humane kind respectful helpful humble listen as well as we speak less insulting even if we think were right.not to look down upon or up to but eye to eye. communicating responsably. we will be better friends educators and pilots . there is risk in living period and even if we do everything right its still going to be possible to die.weather pilot error or miscalculation freak accident negligence we owe it to those who have already passed gerry steve rob adam mark ect there famillys communicate give youre best share your knowlege post be a friend incourage saftey responsability camaraderie we are not triker gods but tommarrow we might be angels. thanks rizzy
Some of you may have missed this one.! One of my older videos some years back now.. with a few amazing landing techniques at the Smithy's Cup Trike Competition.. see what you think, especially if you can use the 'Ground Effect" to hit the mark..!
Echo White Eagle !! @Wefly, that's a great old video. It would be nice to have a friendly non-pressure comp here in the US (though like spot landing contests in HG, it often gets people to due crazy things ... so I hesitate)
A lot of people perhaps don't realize what you may mean by using ground effect for landing. I think it was more evident in HG (especially with the fact that you had to do spot landings repeatably for a "license" and often had to spot your landing between this shrub and that ditch or rock). I was pretty amazed when someone told me the secret of how to use ground effect when I was a HG pilot-- if you are on short final and rounding into ground effect, you see you are going to overshoot your target, let the wing rise back up out of ground effect (this will take energy out of the wing (by climbing) and negate the extra efficiency of glide caused by being in ground effect). Then when you are no longer going to over shoot, come back down into ground effect and flare/land as normal. This is not as easy as it seems, especially without a motor, because you may lose sufficient energy for a good flare and "plop" instead.
The plop or drop seen in some of those landings may have been partially that, but a plop/drop can sometimes be helpful-- more often again in HG, when having gone XC you need to get over that last shrub in the desert and drop down before that next tumble weed. Replay the video above, and imagine some of the "plop" trikes not landing on a smooth grass or long asphalt surface, but having had an engine out, they now need to land in a rough field with just a few small smooth spots, some shrubs, a short fence, etc. Imaging that one that plops just over the line, having cleared a small fence / shrub, plopping it perfectly into the smooth patch and stopping within it. It may actually be the only way to get it down without breaking things-- whereas the long, slow smooth, roundout crossing the fence would over shoot your small patch into the boulder at the other end.
Lots of different techniques for different situations.
(Oh, conversely: No engine, but need to go 15 feet further? Get into ground effect earlier to increase your glide length-- (Caveat: many factors apply)).
Lucian... I didn't mention any trike with a shimmy. I don't even know any trikes that have a shimmy. I was referring to a bicycle with the forks turned the wrong way at high speeds. I thought my bicycle example or shopping cart example was better at showing improper alignment than your wheel barrow example.
Don't get me wrong about bungees on my friends forks. The trike may track true and straight without them. I don't know. They could be there for safety in the event a foot falls off of one of the foot pegs. The bungees would lessen the severity of an accidental turn. I love Northwing's equipment.
I understand what you mean, the only reason I gave a wheel barrow and a person as an example was in case some people could not envision what a trailing arm system on a nose wheel was. By the person being the fok and having the nose wheel under them or out front slightly, because there has to be forward rake of the fork to work properly, they could understand where the wheel and axle should be in a trailing arm system.
Your example was fine however, it is nothing like a trike nose wheel setup because both your bicycle and shopping cart examples have the fork running right up and down with no forward rake. That alone, changes the entire geometry and if you created a trike nose wheel and bent the forks slightly forward like a bicycle with the fork's top shaft running straight up and down through the base tube or keel of the trike, it would be not work like a bicycle but I believe be very prone to shimmy and try and turn itself if it had no pressure applied to the foot pegs.
Although a bicycle feels stable to the rider with no hands on while riding at speed, due greatly to the gyro effect of the large diameter wheels spinning, I believe it would be a very different thing if you were to have little trike wheels on it. Also if you ever try and push a bike slowly forward from the back, it does not always want to run straight and if you give it the slightest tilt (without increasing it as you go) say about 3 degrees to one side and hold it, the forks want to turn that wheel into the turn. Conversely if you pull the bike backwards it will always have the front wheel track perfectly to the rest of the bike's direction and never try and turn one way or another.
Again I am assuming you have actually turned the forks backwards on a bicycle and tried to ride it, since you are telling us that this is extremely unstable, as in wobbly when ridden. But in case you have not done this, how did you know it would not be stable? Regardless of all that, like I said, the fork's top post is straight up and down and not the same as a properly designed trike nose wheel which should be fitted so that the top of the post of that fork is further to the back of the trike than the lower portion of the fork nearer the ground. With that said, I retain my earlier note to you saying that your examples could not be compared to a trike's nose wheel design and their principles would not apply.
Comments
Hi guys! Its very interesting debate here. Lucian, I absolutely agree with you about technique of landing. Every landing, which I teach my students, like as emergency landings. Because we usually have free running engine about 500ft. Next we are flying down - gliding, about 15-20km/h faster than the cruising speed is. Next we made an transient arch and we are waiting for deceleration about 20cm over the ground. This is a standard landing procedure in our country. Im teaching my students for all weather. Against the wind, crosswind and down wind too. Then nobody is extreme surprised when his engine stopped. Because everyone knows what he have to do. And my teaching procedure, about feeling high and speed over the runway is similar as your. We are flying circuits like as flat "eight". Then a student can to feel his flight against the wind and down wind too.
About a trikes. Is very good when front wheel is "in towed" configuration, its self stabilisation position. For all reason, is better if a students foot are strongly put on the pedals. The first touch down may go to the side, especially by a crosswind, next he can modified his direction if he decelerated on ground. Main, rear wheels are setting straight. Better is, if the rear wheels are directed a liiiittleee front side out. The trike is very stabil - autostabil. My father made all his trikes with the V wheels direction and towed front wheel configuration.
Lucien, very private question for you: Are your forefather from Czechoslovakia? Your family name is very known here.
Thanks for the reply Lucian - I've since cured my evils, and got a trike that is far more balanced. However I think speed is a relative term on this. It really doesn't require coming in with "excessive speed", just with more than the design will handle. As I mentioned, some trikes more prone to this than others, and It might interest you to know that the manufacture must be aware of this as they now sell a "retrofit kit" that fixes the very problem I mentioned.
Here is a link and the description
"Steering Dampener Retrofit Kit · for light sport aircraft
North Wing has a new steering dampener with adjustable resistance, and can be installed on your older 2-place trike. The dampener will greatly reduce the front-end shimmy when landing fast or in crosswinds.
The dampener will mount on either a Navajo or under the fairing of the Apache. The steering dampener is standard equipment on new Scout XC and Sport X2 trikes, and really helps landing control."
http://www.northwing.com/steering-dampener-retrofit-kit.htm
PS I already have a copy of your book, and I think its a great resource.
Thanks for the reply Ken and from what you sent I see what you mean about the makers. You would not generally find that on a British, German, Italian, French or Australian manufactured trike, it would have been designed correctly at the start and not passed through to production until it was correctly made. A dampener can help to keep a wheel more stable for those pilots that have loose feet/legs, but it should not be sent out to retrofit to help mask a design flaw, in my mind anyway. It is one thing to offer something as an aid (because some overseas trike makers, who have a well designed, non shimmy nose wheel also offer dampeners) but quite another matter to offer something in an attempt to reduce a problem in the original design.
There is a particular degree of angle of rake and amount of trailing link that goes into a properly designed nose wheel assembly as well as how and where it is placed on the base tube or Keel of the trike. The same goes for the amount of angle (toe-in / toe-out) of the main wheels, this designed in angle actually helps the trike to keep upright if it goes onto two wheels sideways. It helps steer the aircraft back into a line that will plop it back down onto all three wheels when tipped onto two wheels, either side.
When I was suggesting that no proper trike maker would willfully design a nose wheel that would cause a shimmy I had in mind how overseas trike makers handle the design, I was not thinking about US based makers. I am not sure, but suspect the US based makes may not pass the certification requirements of most of the overseas trike maker's countries requirements for safety standards, I could be wrong (to be politically correct) but I doubt it. I appreciate your efforts in sending the info Ken.
I believe that a properly aligned trike will travel straight down the runway without a retrofit kit or feet on the front forks. I will demonstrate this on video as soon as the weather clears in central PA. I intend to make it one of my first videos of the season.
I don't agree with the "trailing arm" design. I've seen too many trikes and gyro-copters out there with this design. They all have bungees or some other design to help them travel straight down the runway. I know North Wing designs their trikes this way. They are the people offering a retrofit kit. One of my flying partners has an older Maverick trike. His forks have thick bungees attached to them to keep the front fork straight. I don't agree with this design except for use on a shopping cart.
As a kid, did you ever ride your bicycle without out hands? "Look mom. No hands". You could do it. I did it all day long. I could even make turns with it without touching the handle bars.
Now flip those handle bars around on that old Sting Ray with the banana seat and sissy bar. Make it so the forks are pointed backwards and the handle bars are pointed away from you. Try letting your hands off the handle bars and see how fast the bike goes into a turn. Go real fast and your front wheel will start to shimmy like a bad caster on a shopping cart.
I wont argue too much with anyone here. I will demonstrate this on video soon and I will show you how much I like my trike.
White Eagle wrote:
"...so thanks for the imput on when you should add sufficiant power on landing. weak or marginal turbulance i see no need to add power i just like to come in with a little more energy is this still correct?
Spot on White Eagle, in weak or marginal turbulence there is no need to add any power, you simply dead stick it in all the way. All hang glider pilots know that dead stick is the only way to land and I starting hang gliding back in about 1972 when I lived in the Austrian Alps. We taught our selves back then and learned from the mistakes the dead were making prior to their demise. Scary to look back on what we were throwing ourselves off a mountain strapped to.
You add power to give yourself a more responsive wing and have the bar in a tiny bit all the way to the point of flare. The tiny bit of bar in also helps you pop up in case of hitting a down draft right close to the ground in rough air conditions and keeping the power on somewhat also reduces the time it takes for the engine and prop to spool up and give you thrust if you need full power at any point prior to touch down. Scott Johnson is one of those very good instructors on my list so you were in good hands with him.
Oh darn now I forget but I think it was Ken that wrote:
"...i was reamed a new' exhaust port' by the self-appointed guru-in-chief of trikedom, and self annointed 'dark side cop', who accused me of not flaring and that the ONLY way to land is with the control tube up against the down tube. my wing, a12m cosmos quits wanting to fly long before hitting the down tube.(power off)..."
I have flown the 12m Cosmos quite a bit as well as their 15m wing and both are very nice handling wings, though the 12m does require a little getting used to and sometimes the neutral bar position is going to be in a different position than you may have been used to. I do understand though why your guy on the dark side, where ever that may be, had stated the full bar out position because that is how I teach and that is how I almost always (99.9%) land a trike, including the Cosmos with either 15m or 12m wing on it.
When I was teaching too many student would extend their arms on landing and leave it at that, thinking they were at full flare. Fully extended arms is NOT a flare by any stretch of the imagination. I would tell them that the control bar (correct terminology [not - control tube]), in tiny increments, should be extended or pushed out towards the compression strut (correct terminology [not - down tube]) until it touched and if from their position they had fully extended arms and were still not there, then they should lean their body forward until it DID touch the compression strut because that is when a full flare at the least amount of air speed was achieved and most likely gave you a touch down with no chance of ballooning back up, even with a slight bump of a landing and also made sure you were not too fast to cause any wheel shimmy. For this reason I always told my students to prepare for landing by sitting upright, they may have slouched a little while flying, tighten their seat belt, wiggle their legs to be sure the nose wheel was straight and that the brake was off, check the choke and hand throttle positions and then settle in to the job at hand, landing.
So in a nutshell, it is always best to perform a landing with the control bar right up against the compression strut at the very last moment of flight as the main wheels gently touch or kiss the ground.
Just to be clear here, assuming conditions allow for this type of landing of course.
No that was not Ken who said that, and I'm so glad we don't have that kind of long-winded "Experts" who oh by the way are selling something here at this site. The types who come down very heavy on others as if only they were touched by the triking gods to dole out advice-- and in doing so squash discussion and make others fear to ask questions for fear of either being embarrassed in front of said self-appointed trike god, or for having trike god insult their instructor, mother, whatever as they describe how they walk on water etc.
I myself do not always land at the slowest possible speed. Sometimes I land a little faster. I don't land at high speeds though-- no reason, but I will definitely put the wheels on the ground at above stall speed in certain conditions. I have heard said trike-god and do not agree and for specific reasons. I tailor both the take off style and landing style to both the conditions of the runway (soft, short, hard, rocky) and the weather (calm, cross, gusty, all over the place, violent (and yes I have landed in violent conditions (where Jets were radioing in about how hard it was)-- hope not to have to again- my bad, big mistake, but ..), etc). IMHO slower is typically better, but super slow is not ALWAYS the best.
Good conversation, I appreciate the openness ...
Peace
Wayne... I understand what you are saying but a bicycle design and shopping cart with 4 wheels is not quite the same as a trike design with a pusher engine for thrust. If you get behind a trike and push it from the prop hub it should track straight and slight trailing arm nose wheels will do this and won't shimmy as you go faster, at least not the British and European and OZ designs that I have flown. There is one exception here, the Air Creation nose wheel on all the 2-seaters prior to the Tanarg, they would not run straight if you pushed them from the prop, however, they did not have a wheel shimmy problem at speed either. The Medway Raven trike for example, a British design, had a trailing arm nose wheel design and you could push it all over the place and have no one in it and it would run straight and never had a tendency to shimmy, so not all trailing arm design react as you have stated Wayne. Which models were you referring to and I assume you have tested them to know they would shimmy?
XC triker..
Not sure if you were referring to me or not in your comments but I want to assure everyone that I do not intend to scare anyone away nor make anyone afraid to ask a question or make comments. There is mis information out there that comes up from time to time and there are things being done that should not in trike flying. If someone states that they are landing fast and they have been taught to do this then it is a valid statement to suggest they were not taught properly.
You are quite correct that there are many different ways to take off and land dependent on conditions and runway surfaces but to go into every scenario would be pointless and far too time consuming on any trike list. A good instructor should know about, discuss and demonstrate all the various scenarios as well as fly a student in all sorts of conditions to give them experience of what that feels like and how to handle the trike as well as what to do to keep them safe. If they do not they should go back to instructor school.
I want to assure everyone that this place is always open to fair discussion and though I may not be one to flower things, I value all opinions and welcome any discussions on any topic I may be involved in. If anyone feels I am overstepping the mark please let me know. I have never called myself a trike God and don't know of anyone else who thinks this so hopefully that was not aimed at me. However, everyone is free think what they like.
Regarding selling something, I have been on this site for a good while and have not been selling anything. The topic being discussed, that of landings, is something that is covered in my book and I don't see anything wrong with mentioning that. No one is being pushed into anything so I see no reason for you to be upset about that, which I assume you are, otherwise I don't see a reason for mentioning it. Now I hope the we can go back to the discussions at hand.
Lucian, I make mistakes all the time. What you just wrote was very nice and I like the invite to openness and discussion.
Thanks everyone, I learned a lot from your input.
we just about talked this to death but what a great interchange of ideas! great to hear so many varied landing protocols. i may be wrong but i try to adjust my landing-de-jour to suit the conditions and or my mood. i'll sometimes deliberately take-off and land down-wind to re-experience the difference. years ago when flying tail-draggers we would sometimes land 'wheel' ldgs, ie on mains then bleeding off speed to let the tail wheel down, other landings were full stall 'squats' on all three wheels at once, reducing the roll out. rather than dogmatically demanding that EVERY ldg be full stall, lowest possible air speed, with the control BAR (hey lucian, isn't a bar solid with no hole in the center? if it has a long hole down it's middle it becombes a tube!) (gotcha!) up agin the front strut wouldn't it be better for all trike pilots to experience different surfaces and methods, i.e. slow lds min airspeed, fast lds, not 60mph! stall plus 20%, dirt, gravel, sand, hard surface etc, cos you NEVER know what the future holds! i posted a video here of a crash i had in 'o6 during which i HAD to land at min airspeed in nasty brush, with very little chance of a roll-out when my crank broke a bearing, sure, in the grainy video you can see my control thingy was up agin the down whatsit, until gravity won then i pulled the 'bar' into my gut to minimise damage to monty! during the ensuing rollover i could have been scratch-up if i'd still had the bar all the way out at 'crash down'. a 'hangy' friend of mine broke BOTH arms in a less than perfect landing , i don't know how he managed to pee, i avoided him till he had healed! there is a limit to brotherly love! monty ps the video is called..... ' My movie 2006 crash part one'....... 75 days ago it's nasty quality i only had a tape corder at the time and had to aim a digital at the tv screen, thus the quasi moon scape! it may be of interest to those of you planning a trike crash , i don't remember if the sound track is functioning, but my floundering around in the brush sounded exactly like crackling of brush on fire, causing me to egress smartly and run away!run away! (monty python's military strategy!)
yes i remember that video monty scary it was and it was you that got bit by the dark side dog yup i had my fill of that got so i was afraid to post there or really didnt enjoy goin there as well. i think so far we have a much better and orderly thread here on all trikes. small disagreements i dont think are so deroggitory kinda nessisary for learning and opinnions do crash from time to time. but i think it was rizzys intent to bring out some of are more distinguished members here to offer there opinions and advice. scince this landing of his was quite awhile ago. thanks riz i cruze u tube looking for videos that inspire me as well as crash videos so i can increase my intuintional abilitys. one pilot here that ive been dying to see join alltrikes for a while and iam a member of his video log for about 3 years is wayne. i finally asked a friend kevin s if he could get him to join. i always felt that his videos were a good model to follow for people interested in this sport.and c burg i remember from the earlier days and the begginings when triking was just getting a foot hold.storys in ushga magazine of guys messing around with wheels engines and hang glider wings.and jeff with hugh amounts of exsperiences and absolutly wonderfull videos to inspire us with .xc whom iam very proud to call a true friend and shares his love for this sport and would give you the shirt off his back to help you north to south on the west coast.ken and his love of triking always there to help whom iam looking very forward to meet. and joe ul whom iam also very glad to call a friend and the calls just to chat about are exsperiences in hang gliding and are new found love of par 103. lucian who has taken the time to adress us here on landing sequence and ive heard fine things said about his instructional abilitys in many circles.jozinko who has mastered the english languge to get involved with his friends across the sea and offer us advice and show us the remarkable achievements in slovakia . and the incredible hospitality and involvement of yft whom we are so lucky to have him and his crew of mates sharing here.if only we learn weather were cfis examiners newbies wanabees to be more humane kind respectful helpful humble listen as well as we speak less insulting even if we think were right.not to look down upon or up to but eye to eye. communicating responsably. we will be better friends educators and pilots . there is risk in living period and even if we do everything right its still going to be possible to die.weather pilot error or miscalculation freak accident negligence we owe it to those who have already passed gerry steve rob adam mark ect there famillys communicate give youre best share your knowlege post be a friend incourage saftey responsability camaraderie we are not triker gods but tommarrow we might be angels. thanks rizzy
Some of you may have missed this one.! One of my older videos some years back now.. with a few amazing landing techniques at the Smithy's Cup Trike Competition.. see what you think, especially if you can use the 'Ground Effect" to hit the mark..!
Well put white eagle
Echo White Eagle !! @Wefly, that's a great old video. It would be nice to have a friendly non-pressure comp here in the US (though like spot landing contests in HG, it often gets people to due crazy things ... so I hesitate)
A lot of people perhaps don't realize what you may mean by using ground effect for landing. I think it was more evident in HG (especially with the fact that you had to do spot landings repeatably for a "license" and often had to spot your landing between this shrub and that ditch or rock). I was pretty amazed when someone told me the secret of how to use ground effect when I was a HG pilot-- if you are on short final and rounding into ground effect, you see you are going to overshoot your target, let the wing rise back up out of ground effect (this will take energy out of the wing (by climbing) and negate the extra efficiency of glide caused by being in ground effect). Then when you are no longer going to over shoot, come back down into ground effect and flare/land as normal. This is not as easy as it seems, especially without a motor, because you may lose sufficient energy for a good flare and "plop" instead.
The plop or drop seen in some of those landings may have been partially that, but a plop/drop can sometimes be helpful-- more often again in HG, when having gone XC you need to get over that last shrub in the desert and drop down before that next tumble weed. Replay the video above, and imagine some of the "plop" trikes not landing on a smooth grass or long asphalt surface, but having had an engine out, they now need to land in a rough field with just a few small smooth spots, some shrubs, a short fence, etc. Imaging that one that plops just over the line, having cleared a small fence / shrub, plopping it perfectly into the smooth patch and stopping within it. It may actually be the only way to get it down without breaking things-- whereas the long, slow smooth, roundout crossing the fence would over shoot your small patch into the boulder at the other end.
Lots of different techniques for different situations.
(Oh, conversely: No engine, but need to go 15 feet further? Get into ground effect earlier to increase your glide length-- (Caveat: many factors apply)).
Lucian... I didn't mention any trike with a shimmy. I don't even know any trikes that have a shimmy. I was referring to a bicycle with the forks turned the wrong way at high speeds. I thought my bicycle example or shopping cart example was better at showing improper alignment than your wheel barrow example.
Don't get me wrong about bungees on my friends forks. The trike may track true and straight without them. I don't know. They could be there for safety in the event a foot falls off of one of the foot pegs. The bungees would lessen the severity of an accidental turn. I love Northwing's equipment.
Hello Wayne,
I understand what you mean, the only reason I gave a wheel barrow and a person as an example was in case some people could not envision what a trailing arm system on a nose wheel was. By the person being the fok and having the nose wheel under them or out front slightly, because there has to be forward rake of the fork to work properly, they could understand where the wheel and axle should be in a trailing arm system.
Your example was fine however, it is nothing like a trike nose wheel setup because both your bicycle and shopping cart examples have the fork running right up and down with no forward rake. That alone, changes the entire geometry and if you created a trike nose wheel and bent the forks slightly forward like a bicycle with the fork's top shaft running straight up and down through the base tube or keel of the trike, it would be not work like a bicycle but I believe be very prone to shimmy and try and turn itself if it had no pressure applied to the foot pegs.
Although a bicycle feels stable to the rider with no hands on while riding at speed, due greatly to the gyro effect of the large diameter wheels spinning, I believe it would be a very different thing if you were to have little trike wheels on it. Also if you ever try and push a bike slowly forward from the back, it does not always want to run straight and if you give it the slightest tilt (without increasing it as you go) say about 3 degrees to one side and hold it, the forks want to turn that wheel into the turn. Conversely if you pull the bike backwards it will always have the front wheel track perfectly to the rest of the bike's direction and never try and turn one way or another.
Again I am assuming you have actually turned the forks backwards on a bicycle and tried to ride it, since you are telling us that this is extremely unstable, as in wobbly when ridden. But in case you have not done this, how did you know it would not be stable? Regardless of all that, like I said, the fork's top post is straight up and down and not the same as a properly designed trike nose wheel which should be fitted so that the top of the post of that fork is further to the back of the trike than the lower portion of the fork nearer the ground. With that said, I retain my earlier note to you saying that your examples could not be compared to a trike's nose wheel design and their principles would not apply.