Love to go but no can do. I'm spending all my free time and money wrapping up my training! Should solo any day now (as long as my 582 stops complaining about being old).
Fly every chance you get...every day is best (and study every night). You'll feel really sharp on your checkride. Total boot-camp emersion is fastest and cheapest way. Guys who drag it out make it harder than it has to be.
Schedule your checkride...push yourself and instructor. All humans do best with deadlines.
Rotax Rick built my 670 using my bluehead 582 head, cdi, gearbox, etc.
I did purchase the 670 exhaust instead of running my old 582 exhaust.
I left the prop overpitched and run at low RPMs (under 6000) trying to not stress the motor too much but I'm burning too much fuel so plan on pitching the prop to reach higher RPMs and leaning out the carbs a bit.
The engine ran really hot for the first few hours so I was running it rich. I ended up using three radiators (belly plus std. dual) instead of one large one (belly) and the cooling issue went away.
It WILL NOT do well on a heavy trike with 582. I can not safely carry a passenger over 150 lbs (I am only 150lbs) unless you wanna cruise around at 6200 rpm and climb out at 300-400ft/min!!! If you fly over trees even in short patches it will likely get you killed. At best glide you are coming down at 1000-1200ft/min, Push out any more and you are getting into mushing at an unsafe airspeed!
Diveability is all fine and good when you can also glide a bit. Best glide power off is between 3:1 and 4.5:1. And it touches down at 50 knotts! You will not walk away from a power off landing with this wing unless you come down on smooth terrain. You are in dive mode power off..there is no glide mode.
Also last weekend tried a power off stall (which I have done numerous times with all ranges of hang gliders and the trike wings listed), took me 1300 feet to recover! I kept the bar in for airspeed and it just wouldn't come out!
I have flown Streaks, Stranger, Profi, Wizzard, all on my trike and they flew great. This thing is a nightmare. It seems ok at first but the more you fly it the more problems you find. I have also flown all different range of hang gliders from single surface Falcons to T2c and have never seen anything like this.
The pitch block was effective. But you could just pay a little more and get a streak that will handle just as well as a gibbo+pitch block without the pitch block..and handle turbulence better, handle better, do everything better (except speed)!
Mine wont even stay zipped at lower surface without zip ties! The damn zipper hits my downtubes and cannot be zipped all the way! He offered a new sail. I don't want to re-sail my new wing! I bought it new so I wouldn't have to re-sail an old wing. Wouldn't solve core problem anyway..it would still be a Mako.
Tried to get my money back. Gibbo sent me a free pitch block..he made an effort I appreciated but also emailed me a bunch of numbers when I was thinking of buying wing that are not even close to reality! I now have a 6500 wing that will end up in dumpster if I cant sell it. I was quoted in emails a 7:1 glide and a 750ft/min sink rate...not even close! Made a point that those were important characteristics when I bought the wing. He tested it on the same trike I have!
I am now stuck with this thing. Doubt I can sell it because I wont lie about its capabilities. On the fence about ever flying it again. I think it would be ok if you live somewhere where you fly over 100% land able terrain or have an engine you are 100% sure will NEVER quit.
Maintains level flight at 5500 rpm but you have to continually push the bar out to keep it level at 5500 otherwise it need 5800 solo. Tried moving hang point, doesn't matter. Pitch block helps with this but who wants to fly pushing bar out all the time.
Switched streak 2b on my trike on same night..Streak 2b handled turbulence better, was a bit slower, handled better, climbed better, glide better, level flight at 5100 without having to push out.
Mako is bad design for heavy trike with 582.
Wile E Scott I will gladly sell or trade you mine as long as I know I have accurately described its capabilities to you.
I only flew it on a light trike with a 503 solo at sea level in the springtime. It flew fine, but I've owned a Manta and an Orka with a 75 HP Continental.
I know it seems hard for you to believe but some people really like the feel of these wings...but they are not for everybody. I’ve said this before.
I think flying fast no-glide aircraft (Twin Comanche, KR2, Quickie Tri-Q2, gyros, and helicopters) all of which make the Mako feel like a sailplane in comparison allows me to be more comfortable with faster approach speeds.
But I fully understand your frame of reference. That's why I always preach the merits of doing a demo before you buy. But sometimes you can't. I know. I’ve shot the dice many times over the past 30-40 aircraft I’ve bought over the past 40 years.
Don’t get too discouraged, somebody will buy it and hopefully it will find a good home.
I felt that way about my last purchase, a Hughes 269A helicopter. Everybody kept telling me how great they were and how they were their favorite helicopter…way better than the R22, which I was flying a lot and loved. I had flown the Schweitzer 300 which is basically the same machine (so I thought). I kind of liked it. So I bought the Hughes and totally regretted it.
When I bought my Hughes I absolutely HATED everything about it. It really surprised me. The only thing I liked was the headroom. The thing flew like a pig to me but the guy who took it off my hands loves it…go figure.
It all seem s based on a person’s frame of reference. I’ve owned and flown some wings that are very popular and well liked…that I hated to fly (and will remain nameless). And I’ve owned wings that are rare or prototypes…and loved them. I’ve sold most of my wings but still have four, two of which, nobody has ever heard of.
Another example, I thought I would love triking the Fledge III, most Fledge owners do. I flew it for a couple years and never really liked it. Too much tip area and terrible in turbulence.
It's mostly subjective and based on personal preferences. But cleary the right combo is required too.
I've got an old and ragged-out Pegasus Quantum wing I'll trade you along with some cash (for you). But I'm sure you'll be able to get a better deal and an easier retrofit.
Note it has a long keel fin and needs to be really high above the prop. Go on Barnstormers and place an add for Trike Wing.
Tell you what...I'll give it to you if you come get it.
It needs work...I bought the trike/wing just for a trike for my other wings. The Quantum I have no use for.
I'm building a twin-engine (two 582s) single-place Gyke (Gyro-Trike) and the Mako could work fine on. 130 HP should be enough to push it. I don't need it yet but maybe we can do some horse trading. Let's see how the ad in Barnstormers goes for you.
It really sounds like he's got the CG too far forward or something. Not sure what altitude he's at.
Like I've mentioned several times, you have to get the tips working if you want to extract climb performance out of these wings. Otherwise you are only flying the front of the wing.
Flying at sea level. Wing is rigged correct as far as I can tell. Gibson gave me a manta manual with it.
Didn't have a Mako manual. I have had a lot of HG and Trike wings. Doubt I did it wrong. Think I got experimented on, my sail doesn't fit the frame..looks like he moved the down tubes forward on keel and used my sail from an older design because zipper on lower surface extends about 2-inches past down tubes so I cant zip it up. I tried moving hang point back. It doesn't matter.
I have now got several PM's from people who have similar issues with the Orca.
My prop is pitched correctly. Everything is as it should be with my trike.
Garrett, really sorry to hear you are having this problem. Sea level, 582, 65 HP, 150 lb pilot, 15 meter, solo...I'm really surprised buy your results. I have no plausible explanation. It just doesn’t add up in my head. I’m not questioning your truthfulness…I just can’t figure it out.
I did find the strut & downtube fairings helped my Orca, but I flew the Manta without them.
Garrett, sorry to hear that. Did you try to contact Gibbo and see if he will exchange it for a Manta 15 or 17 wing... My instructor flew my 17 and said it was a very docile wing...I never had the chance to fly it yet but I am saying if Gibbo has a 17, perhaps exchange this wing for the 17 or 15 meter if that is your taste.
I’ve been triking since 1979 and hang gliding since 1977. I’ve had the pleasure to trike many wings.
As far as Gibbo's wings, I’ve owned or demo-ed the Butterfly 15, 19 & 21 (as I recall), FS 19, Tiburon 10, Manta 12.5, 15 (land & water), 17, 19, Orca 12, Mako 15. Like all the other manufacturers, they each have their own traits that various people prefer...just like cars...no wrong answer if you like it.
As I’ve mentioned a number of times over the years…Gibbo’s low aspect ratio big tip wings have excellent pitch and yaw stability throughout their speed range. The trade-off for this is bar travel, speed range and pitch pressure. The pitch block reduces the pitch pressure and the bar travel to a lesser extent.
In these type wings you need to get the tips flying for their maximum efficiency. You have to slow down to load the tips. During normal fun flying at faster speeds the front of the wing is doing all the work and allows it to be nimble and dive.
The problem I had with one of my recent home-made trikes was that it was too cramped and did not allow enough pull-in travel. I had planned to put on a speed bar to allow the extra pull-in I desired.
However, on the Mako 15 Gibbo made a change to his control bar rake angle to allow more pull-in. Its raked forward around 16” (as I recall). This allows the top end of the wing’s speed envelop to utilized. So it’s a pretty fast 15 meter wing…because it has more pull in and because it has good directional stability at the top end.
You mentioned how you were having to push out all the time. Note that when you fly with the Mako bar in the normal position, like in a Streak or even the Manta or Orca, you are actually flying as if the bar was all the way to your belly.
Old hang gliders rigged for prone flight had similar forward rake and often we would re-rig the bar back 12” so that it was in a comfortable position at cruise speed when flying in the seated position. In fact I still trike my modified 1978 Raven 229 which, among other things, has the bar moved back around 12” from its normal prone rigged location. Some pilots back then flew supine (seated) and the bar had to be moved back for them. Some earlier wings actually had two sets of tangs on the front/rear cable set…and were selectable for either prone or seated.
So when you are normally flying most wings at mid-speed range when the bar is comfortable, you are actually flying the Mako closer to its top end when the bar is in the same comfortable position.
The control bar rake angle change can be either good or a bad depending on a pilot’s situation and preference. It’s a fast 15 meter wing because you can pull it in more than the smaller (but slower) 12 meter Orca, which you can’t pull in as far without the bar hitting your belly. That’s why I wanted a speed bar on my Orca. It did not have enough rake angle for my personal taste.
Normally I just re-rig the bar myself on cable braced wings to get it where I want it, but because it was a “folding” strut wing and the folding geometry takes a lot of experimentation to get it right. I did not want to mess with it. So the speed bar was a better solution.
I would like to see Gibbo offer a couple of bar position options. You and I have/had the exact opposite problems. You need the bar more rearwards and I needed the bar more forwards.
So when you talk to a prospective buyer for your Mako, you need to tell them that this wing is like flying most other similar size wings with the bar pulled to your belly. Some wings have good directional stability pulled in (Gibbo’s do) and some other wings do not have good directional stability with the bar to the belly.
I’m convinced if your bar was positioned like the Manta or Orca you would like it better. But clearly it doesn’t meet your needs, but I’m sure an owner with more compatible taste will like it.
Also note the Mako has slightly smaller tips than its predecessors, which generally means the stall charactoristics suffer slighty...less docile.
Have been getting a lot of questions about gibbo gear mako wing and a lot of notes from people that have had trouble with orca wings. I also had mechanic refuse to pass me on my annual due to design of gibbo pitch block. For those interested I am making a web page with my communications with gibson about the wings capabilities and what it actually does. I don't want someone else to fall for the waaaaayyyy off claims he makes about its performance and buy the wrong wing. It simply does not fly like he says it does, and cannot do what he says it can. I even tried it on a different trike. Same problems.
I will post the right-up here and put it on the web when I am done. just wanted folks that emailed me to know I read your emails and found it easier to respond here all at once:
The wing would probably work if you have a 912 or a 670 two-stroke.
Fyi. Mark posted his reply on trikepilot. And again, Garrett is incorrect as I had my detailed demo of the Mako on a 503 trike and it performed just as well. My instructor and several others have flown it as well and loved it.
I've only flown it once on my 503 trike and I couldn't tell much difference except less fuel burn and slightly lower ascent rate. I really baby the 670. But, there's not much of a reason for a fast wing on a 503 buggy so I keep the mako on the jetstar.
Looks like a normal bar in approach to me. I can maintain altitude at 4600 or so on my 670 (detuned to run like a 582) and low 5000s with my 503. I'd estimate that I have to turn 100rpm more than on my other wings for the Mako to maintain altitude at neutral bar position.
Next time I'm up, I'll try to pay more attention to speeds. They are pretty close to Mark's specs.
Remember when you have the Mako at the "normal" bar position, it's the same as having any other 15 meter wing trimmed with your bar to the belly. The wing has significant forward rake and forward CG. More than any of the wings you’ve mentioned you’ve flown. The bar is 16" more forward than the Orca.
I still think that Garrett does not fully realize this point.
You are essentially pulling in much more than any wing you've ever flown. Try any of your other wings with 16” more forward rake and a much more forward CG (to get it in the "normal" position) and report back to us how you like flying them. On some of them you will be shocked at the poor performance and lack of yaw stability in that configuration….the Wizard in particular.
Actually Gibbo himself told me that it needed 5500 for level flight I never had a problem with that, just a problem with [ :) ] sink rate, climb out and ability to carry a passenger. I tried it with an outback 503 and it was working to death trying to fly this wing. here is the quote from Gibbo in email:
Around 5400 with a 582.....your flying around
70 mph at this setting.....its not a problem landing with power off....power off glide is around 7 to 1.....sink rate is around 400 fpm.
My guess for shipping is 7 to 8 hundred.
Mark
[ :) ]
And if you think a landing approach with 1000ft/minute sink rate and the bar out mushing (as in the video I posted) and the motor turning ~4500 rpm is normal!! you have been flying these RST wings too long! Major manufacture perform way better! If you notice the runway is convex on the top of a mountain! If I had that bar in I would have nosed in my trike!!
I DO have the bar out in the video!! The camera is on my head!!
My challenge to people that are thinking about this wing is to try it first, then try the Northwing GT5 or equivalent...I wish I had...the northwing is light-years better than the Mako..I tried to save a buck and got burned. I posted these numbers so no one else gets suckered [ :) ]. Why would I lie?? Do you think I want a 6500$ paper weight in my hanger! Try before you buy!
I flew it in springtime, sea level on a paved runway with a light 503 trike. It climbed fine, and I got off in a few hundred feet.
I knew I was flying a wing with the bar moved forward 16”, a very forward CG, and a pitch block , and I flew it accordingly. I saw no big deal with it…but I’ve flow all of Gibbo's other wings before. A hang glider it is not, but seemed like a sporty mid-size trike wing to me.
But I completely agree that you should demo something if there is any way possible. Often you are surprised…either positively or negatively.
I’d heard so many great things from by buddies and ex-Army guys about how great the Hughes 269A flew. So I bought one (no demo) and absolutely hated flying it. I couldn’t get rid of that pig fast enough. My neighbor, a retired helicopter Cop who flew one every day, could not understand why I sold it and and why I didn’t like it. Seems everybody else but me likes them. I told him/them it flew like a pig compared to an R22, and that I could never learn to love it.
However, had I not flown an R22/44 and a Rotorway before…who knows…maybe I would have liked it and still own it.
I remember being snowed in in Wyoming on a pipeline project. We tried about 10 different types of salsa. We would rate them as we went. Later we would re-compare the brands we thought were the best in our original assessment, and on the next comparison we could not believe how much we disliked, what we really liked the first time. Everything is relative.
Turns out Mark sold me a prototype without telling me about it. He admitted the wing was a prototype on trikepilot social..claimed he told me..forgot he numbered it Mako #200 and something under the nosecone. I am out of town right now so I cant take a picture of it but I will later. He never told me...and I saved all his emails and phone conversations that I had with him [ :) ]
[ :) ]
I know [ my mechanic] wont sign it off now, because he wouldn't sign it off with the new gibbo gear pitch block, and I am not changing mechanics because he is the only one I know that actually does a detailed inspection that I feel keeps me safe. He is a professional mechanical engineer and flies trikes.
Now for the bar out stuff...Do you really think it is safe to fly a wing that requires the bar be pitched out so far that you are effectively mushing into landing approaches!!?? Even with the bar out you are sinking at 1000ft/minute!! Then you arrive at the ground mushing...bar already out..and if you hit sink, or a wind gradient and the nose drops you have no airspeed....and no way to get the nose up!! You are already mushing it in! And on top of that you have less control because of the decreased airspeed! Talk about a dangerous design! Especially for those of us that land on mountain top airstrips and fly over real wilderness where you need a well designed wing if you have an engine out!!
Garrett nobody told you to do fly dangerously slow approaches. Do you need 70 on short final to be safe? Like Abid said, about your take-offs...they are not a short field technique on the video, especially considering the bar is raked forward.
Im with you av8or. I am all for spirited discussion of all things triking, however when it degenerates into vitriol and accusations of lying I lose interest very quickly. I think there is sufficient information out there now for people to make their own judgements about the pros and cons of this particular wing. Lets get back to the positives of our sport.
Cburg..that is my point..If I have an engine out I will have only two choices..fly a dangerously slow approach in efforts to keep the trike at a survivable velocity for impact at the wings lowest possible sink rate (which is still 1000:1200ft/minute) AND achieve its longest possible glide (which will still only be 5:1), or fly it at a more controllable airspeed and arrive at terrain at 70MPH sinking at a very deadly rate!! Those are my only two choices with this wing.
Comments
Love to go but no can do. I'm spending all my free time and money wrapping up my training! Should solo any day now (as long as my 582 stops complaining about being old).
Wile,
Fly every chance you get...every day is best (and study every night). You'll feel really sharp on your checkride. Total boot-camp emersion is fastest and cheapest way. Guys who drag it out make it harder than it has to be.
Schedule your checkride...push yourself and instructor. All humans do best with deadlines.
Good luck…
Rotax Rick built my 670 using my bluehead 582 head, cdi, gearbox, etc.
I did purchase the 670 exhaust instead of running my old 582 exhaust.
I left the prop overpitched and run at low RPMs (under 6000) trying to not stress the motor too much but I'm burning too much fuel so plan on pitching the prop to reach higher RPMs and leaning out the carbs a bit.
The engine ran really hot for the first few hours so I was running it rich. I ended up using three radiators (belly plus std. dual) instead of one large one (belly) and the cooling issue went away.
It WILL NOT do well on a heavy trike with 582. I can not safely carry a passenger over 150 lbs (I am only 150lbs) unless you wanna cruise around at 6200 rpm and climb out at 300-400ft/min!!! If you fly over trees even in short patches it will likely get you killed. At best glide you are coming down at 1000-1200ft/min, Push out any more and you are getting into mushing at an unsafe airspeed!
Diveability is all fine and good when you can also glide a bit. Best glide power off is between 3:1 and 4.5:1. And it touches down at 50 knotts! You will not walk away from a power off landing with this wing unless you come down on smooth terrain. You are in dive mode power off..there is no glide mode.
Also last weekend tried a power off stall (which I have done numerous times with all ranges of hang gliders and the trike wings listed), took me 1300 feet to recover! I kept the bar in for airspeed and it just wouldn't come out!
I have flown Streaks, Stranger, Profi, Wizzard, all on my trike and they flew great. This thing is a nightmare. It seems ok at first but the more you fly it the more problems you find. I have also flown all different range of hang gliders from single surface Falcons to T2c and have never seen anything like this.
The pitch block was effective. But you could just pay a little more and get a streak that will handle just as well as a gibbo+pitch block without the pitch block..and handle turbulence better, handle better, do everything better (except speed)!
Mine wont even stay zipped at lower surface without zip ties! The damn zipper hits my downtubes and cannot be zipped all the way! He offered a new sail. I don't want to re-sail my new wing! I bought it new so I wouldn't have to re-sail an old wing. Wouldn't solve core problem anyway..it would still be a Mako.
Tried to get my money back. Gibbo sent me a free pitch block..he made an effort I appreciated but also emailed me a bunch of numbers when I was thinking of buying wing that are not even close to reality! I now have a 6500 wing that will end up in dumpster if I cant sell it. I was quoted in emails a 7:1 glide and a 750ft/min sink rate...not even close! Made a point that those were important characteristics when I bought the wing. He tested it on the same trike I have!
I am now stuck with this thing. Doubt I can sell it because I wont lie about its capabilities. On the fence about ever flying it again. I think it would be ok if you live somewhere where you fly over 100% land able terrain or have an engine you are 100% sure will NEVER quit.
Maintains level flight at 5500 rpm but you have to continually push the bar out to keep it level at 5500 otherwise it need 5800 solo. Tried moving hang point, doesn't matter. Pitch block helps with this but who wants to fly pushing bar out all the time.
Switched streak 2b on my trike on same night..Streak 2b handled turbulence better, was a bit slower, handled better, climbed better, glide better, level flight at 5100 without having to push out.
Mako is bad design for heavy trike with 582.
Wile E Scott I will gladly sell or trade you mine as long as I know I have accurately described its capabilities to you.
I only flew it on a light trike with a 503 solo at sea level in the springtime. It flew fine, but I've owned a Manta and an Orka with a 75 HP Continental.
I know it seems hard for you to believe but some people really like the feel of these wings...but they are not for everybody. I’ve said this before.
I think flying fast no-glide aircraft (Twin Comanche, KR2, Quickie Tri-Q2, gyros, and helicopters) all of which make the Mako feel like a sailplane in comparison allows me to be more comfortable with faster approach speeds.
But I fully understand your frame of reference. That's why I always preach the merits of doing a demo before you buy. But sometimes you can't. I know. I’ve shot the dice many times over the past 30-40 aircraft I’ve bought over the past 40 years.
Don’t get too discouraged, somebody will buy it and hopefully it will find a good home.
I felt that way about my last purchase, a Hughes 269A helicopter. Everybody kept telling me how great they were and how they were their favorite helicopter…way better than the R22, which I was flying a lot and loved. I had flown the Schweitzer 300 which is basically the same machine (so I thought). I kind of liked it. So I bought the Hughes and totally regretted it.
When I bought my Hughes I absolutely HATED everything about it. It really surprised me. The only thing I liked was the headroom. The thing flew like a pig to me but the guy who took it off my hands loves it…go figure.
It all seem s based on a person’s frame of reference. I’ve owned and flown some wings that are very popular and well liked…that I hated to fly (and will remain nameless). And I’ve owned wings that are rare or prototypes…and loved them. I’ve sold most of my wings but still have four, two of which, nobody has ever heard of.
Another example, I thought I would love triking the Fledge III, most Fledge owners do. I flew it for a couple years and never really liked it. Too much tip area and terrible in turbulence.
It's mostly subjective and based on personal preferences. But cleary the right combo is required too.
I've got an old and ragged-out Pegasus Quantum wing I'll trade you along with some cash (for you). But I'm sure you'll be able to get a better deal and an easier retrofit.
Note it has a long keel fin and needs to be really high above the prop. Go on Barnstormers and place an add for Trike Wing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_Quantum
Tell you what...I'll give it to you if you come get it.
It needs work...I bought the trike/wing just for a trike for my other wings. The Quantum I have no use for.
I'm building a twin-engine (two 582s) single-place Gyke (Gyro-Trike) and the Mako could work fine on. 130 HP should be enough to push it. I don't need it yet but maybe we can do some horse trading. Let's see how the ad in Barnstormers goes for you.
I'm not having any of these problems with my Mako. And again , I have a heavy trike with a 670 (582).
I have no stall or gliding issues, I climb out at 900-1100 fpm, no steep descent rate.
My cruise RPM may be 100 RPM over my other wings but I'm also going faster and those rpms are in the high 4000's, certainly not 6000's.
Great handling. And yes, I've flown a good sampling of wings so have a good comparison point.
Are you sure it's not rigged wrong?
How could they be so radically different?
- Dan
It really sounds like he's got the CG too far forward or something. Not sure what altitude he's at.
Like I've mentioned several times, you have to get the tips working if you want to extract climb performance out of these wings. Otherwise you are only flying the front of the wing.
Flying at sea level. Wing is rigged correct as far as I can tell. Gibson gave me a manta manual with it.
Didn't have a Mako manual. I have had a lot of HG and Trike wings. Doubt I did it wrong. Think I got experimented on, my sail doesn't fit the frame..looks like he moved the down tubes forward on keel and used my sail from an older design because zipper on lower surface extends about 2-inches past down tubes so I cant zip it up. I tried moving hang point back. It doesn't matter.
I have now got several PM's from people who have similar issues with the Orca.
My prop is pitched correctly. Everything is as it should be with my trike.
Hate this damn Mako.
[ :) ]
Garrett, really sorry to hear you are having this problem. Sea level, 582, 65 HP, 150 lb pilot, 15 meter, solo...I'm really surprised buy your results. I have no plausible explanation. It just doesn’t add up in my head. I’m not questioning your truthfulness…I just can’t figure it out.
I did find the strut & downtube fairings helped my Orca, but I flew the Manta without them.
Garrett, sorry to hear that. Did you try to contact Gibbo and see if he will exchange it for a Manta 15 or 17 wing... My instructor flew my 17 and said it was a very docile wing...I never had the chance to fly it yet but I am saying if Gibbo has a 17, perhaps exchange this wing for the 17 or 15 meter if that is your taste.
I’ve been triking since 1979 and hang gliding since 1977. I’ve had the pleasure to trike many wings.
As far as Gibbo's wings, I’ve owned or demo-ed the Butterfly 15, 19 & 21 (as I recall), FS 19, Tiburon 10, Manta 12.5, 15 (land & water), 17, 19, Orca 12, Mako 15. Like all the other manufacturers, they each have their own traits that various people prefer...just like cars...no wrong answer if you like it.
As I’ve mentioned a number of times over the years…Gibbo’s low aspect ratio big tip wings have excellent pitch and yaw stability throughout their speed range. The trade-off for this is bar travel, speed range and pitch pressure. The pitch block reduces the pitch pressure and the bar travel to a lesser extent.
In these type wings you need to get the tips flying for their maximum efficiency. You have to slow down to load the tips. During normal fun flying at faster speeds the front of the wing is doing all the work and allows it to be nimble and dive.
The problem I had with one of my recent home-made trikes was that it was too cramped and did not allow enough pull-in travel. I had planned to put on a speed bar to allow the extra pull-in I desired.
However, on the Mako 15 Gibbo made a change to his control bar rake angle to allow more pull-in. Its raked forward around 16” (as I recall). This allows the top end of the wing’s speed envelop to utilized. So it’s a pretty fast 15 meter wing…because it has more pull in and because it has good directional stability at the top end.
You mentioned how you were having to push out all the time. Note that when you fly with the Mako bar in the normal position, like in a Streak or even the Manta or Orca, you are actually flying as if the bar was all the way to your belly.
Old hang gliders rigged for prone flight had similar forward rake and often we would re-rig the bar back 12” so that it was in a comfortable position at cruise speed when flying in the seated position. In fact I still trike my modified 1978 Raven 229 which, among other things, has the bar moved back around 12” from its normal prone rigged location. Some pilots back then flew supine (seated) and the bar had to be moved back for them. Some earlier wings actually had two sets of tangs on the front/rear cable set…and were selectable for either prone or seated.
So when you are normally flying most wings at mid-speed range when the bar is comfortable, you are actually flying the Mako closer to its top end when the bar is in the same comfortable position.
The control bar rake angle change can be either good or a bad depending on a pilot’s situation and preference. It’s a fast 15 meter wing because you can pull it in more than the smaller (but slower) 12 meter Orca, which you can’t pull in as far without the bar hitting your belly. That’s why I wanted a speed bar on my Orca. It did not have enough rake angle for my personal taste.
Normally I just re-rig the bar myself on cable braced wings to get it where I want it, but because it was a “folding” strut wing and the folding geometry takes a lot of experimentation to get it right. I did not want to mess with it. So the speed bar was a better solution.
I would like to see Gibbo offer a couple of bar position options. You and I have/had the exact opposite problems. You need the bar more rearwards and I needed the bar more forwards.
So when you talk to a prospective buyer for your Mako, you need to tell them that this wing is like flying most other similar size wings with the bar pulled to your belly. Some wings have good directional stability pulled in (Gibbo’s do) and some other wings do not have good directional stability with the bar to the belly.
I’m convinced if your bar was positioned like the Manta or Orca you would like it better. But clearly it doesn’t meet your needs, but I’m sure an owner with more compatible taste will like it.
Also note the Mako has slightly smaller tips than its predecessors, which generally means the stall charactoristics suffer slighty...less docile.
Have been getting a lot of questions about gibbo gear mako wing and a lot of notes from people that have had trouble with orca wings. I also had mechanic refuse to pass me on my annual due to design of gibbo pitch block. For those interested I am making a web page with my communications with gibson about the wings capabilities and what it actually does. I don't want someone else to fall for the waaaaayyyy off claims he makes about its performance and buy the wrong wing. It simply does not fly like he says it does, and cannot do what he says it can. I even tried it on a different trike. Same problems.
I will post the right-up here and put it on the web when I am done. just wanted folks that emailed me to know I read your emails and found it easier to respond here all at once:
The wing would probably work if you have a 912 or a 670 two-stroke.
Fyi. Mark posted his reply on trikepilot. And again, Garrett is incorrect as I had my detailed demo of the Mako on a 503 trike and it performed just as well. My instructor and several others have flown it as well and loved it.
I've only flown it once on my 503 trike and I couldn't tell much difference except less fuel burn and slightly lower ascent rate. I really baby the 670. But, there's not much of a reason for a fast wing on a 503 buggy so I keep the mako on the jetstar.
Here: See for yourself. Video is not for this purpose, but you can see it sinking 800-1000ft/min@4500 rpm...imagine power off...hmm...
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Looks like a normal bar in approach to me. I can maintain altitude at 4600 or so on my 670 (detuned to run like a 582) and low 5000s with my 503. I'd estimate that I have to turn 100rpm more than on my other wings for the Mako to maintain altitude at neutral bar position.
Next time I'm up, I'll try to pay more attention to speeds. They are pretty close to Mark's specs.
Remember when you have the Mako at the "normal" bar position, it's the same as having any other 15 meter wing trimmed with your bar to the belly. The wing has significant forward rake and forward CG. More than any of the wings you’ve mentioned you’ve flown. The bar is 16" more forward than the Orca.
I still think that Garrett does not fully realize this point.
You are essentially pulling in much more than any wing you've ever flown. Try any of your other wings with 16” more forward rake and a much more forward CG (to get it in the "normal" position) and report back to us how you like flying them. On some of them you will be shocked at the poor performance and lack of yaw stability in that configuration….the Wizard in particular.
Actually Gibbo himself told me that it needed 5500 for level flight I never had a problem with that, just a problem with [ :) ] sink rate, climb out and ability to carry a passenger. I tried it with an outback 503 and it was working to death trying to fly this wing. here is the quote from Gibbo in email:
I flew it in springtime, sea level on a paved runway with a light 503 trike. It climbed fine, and I got off in a few hundred feet.
I knew I was flying a wing with the bar moved forward 16”, a very forward CG, and a pitch block , and I flew it accordingly. I saw no big deal with it…but I’ve flow all of Gibbo's other wings before. A hang glider it is not, but seemed like a sporty mid-size trike wing to me.
But I completely agree that you should demo something if there is any way possible. Often you are surprised…either positively or negatively.
I’d heard so many great things from by buddies and ex-Army guys about how great the Hughes 269A flew. So I bought one (no demo) and absolutely hated flying it. I couldn’t get rid of that pig fast enough. My neighbor, a retired helicopter Cop who flew one every day, could not understand why I sold it and and why I didn’t like it. Seems everybody else but me likes them. I told him/them it flew like a pig compared to an R22, and that I could never learn to love it.
However, had I not flown an R22/44 and a Rotorway before…who knows…maybe I would have liked it and still own it.
I remember being snowed in in Wyoming on a pipeline project. We tried about 10 different types of salsa. We would rate them as we went. Later we would re-compare the brands we thought were the best in our original assessment, and on the next comparison we could not believe how much we disliked, what we really liked the first time. Everything is relative.
Turns out Mark sold me a prototype without telling me about it. He admitted the wing was a prototype on trikepilot social..claimed he told me..forgot he numbered it Mako #200 and something under the nosecone. I am out of town right now so I cant take a picture of it but I will later. He never told me...and I saved all his emails and phone conversations that I had with him [ :) ]
[ :) ]
I know [ my mechanic] wont sign it off now, because he wouldn't sign it off with the new gibbo gear pitch block, and I am not changing mechanics because he is the only one I know that actually does a detailed inspection that I feel keeps me safe. He is a professional mechanical engineer and flies trikes.
Now for the bar out stuff...Do you really think it is safe to fly a wing that requires the bar be pitched out so far that you are effectively mushing into landing approaches!!?? Even with the bar out you are sinking at 1000ft/minute!! Then you arrive at the ground mushing...bar already out..and if you hit sink, or a wind gradient and the nose drops you have no airspeed....and no way to get the nose up!! You are already mushing it in! And on top of that you have less control because of the decreased airspeed! Talk about a dangerous design! Especially for those of us that land on mountain top airstrips and fly over real wilderness where you need a well designed wing if you have an engine out!!
Garrett, with respect do you guys have to "air your dirty washing" on all the trike sites !! For a moment there I wasn't sure which I was logged onto.
Garrett nobody told you to do fly dangerously slow approaches. Do you need 70 on short final to be safe? Like Abid said, about your take-offs...they are not a short field technique on the video, especially considering the bar is raked forward.
Im with you av8or. I am all for spirited discussion of all things triking, however when it degenerates into vitriol and accusations of lying I lose interest very quickly. I think there is sufficient information out there now for people to make their own judgements about the pros and cons of this particular wing. Lets get back to the positives of our sport.
Cburg..that is my point..If I have an engine out I will have only two choices..fly a dangerously slow approach in efforts to keep the trike at a survivable velocity for impact at the wings lowest possible sink rate (which is still 1000:1200ft/minute) AND achieve its longest possible glide (which will still only be 5:1), or fly it at a more controllable airspeed and arrive at terrain at 70MPH sinking at a very deadly rate!! Those are my only two choices with this wing.
Fly safe everybody.