The reports I've read so far is that it has a better speed range than the Orca (more forward rake on the control bar) and uses less power...similar handling.
The smaller tips reduce pitch pressure and improves speed range too.
The detached lower surface usually improves handling...I triked a Bennett Streak back in 1982 and it was one of my very favorite trike wings...it too had a fully detached lower surface.
I'm very interested in your review as well. Could you please post some detailed pics of construction when you have the chance? I'm not familiar with the differences in a detached wing construction.
I am interested is your report on this wing as well Cberg & Garrett. Stall, and flight speed numbers and your overall impression of how this wing flies would be much appreciated. My friend Dan just bought one so I hope to fly this wing sooner or later but your input would also add to the 'useful information' category.
Flying Airborne Edge X Classic with 582 and warp drive prop from runway at 400ftMSL. I am a 160 pound guy. Haven't gone two-up yet.
-Hands off trim is 55 kts at 5300 rpm. Push the bar out and it will be 52knts at 5000RPM level flight.
-Climb out 850-1000fpm
-Stalls at about 40
-Light in roll heavy in pitch
-drops like a rock power off 1000ft/minute down or worse
-Craftsmanship is quite good. The frame looks overbuilt (which I like) and the sail stitching is better than or equal to what I have seen on Northwings, Airbornes, or any hang glider I have ever had.
So with the power off drop your talking about, how do you think it handles for landing flares? I'm more use to flying NW wings that you have to convince to come down. Does it slow up smoothly on round out?
It was good to hear that your review was from a 582; that's my ride as well. I was skeptical about owning that wing with my 582 and what it would take for RPMs in level flight to be adequate. My GTE cruises (one up) at around 4500 RPM. I would imagine that two up would be challenging for the 582 but if you get the opportunity please post your feeling related to that as well.
I've always (2 years now) heard very good praise related to Gibbos hardware and craftsmanship. I would say #1 which wing model and #2 my lack of experience are my big hold backs right now. That and money of course!
Something you don’t hear talked about much is dive-ability. Sometimes…it’s nice to have a really efficient wing that requires a long low approach…especially if you happen to be dead-stick.
But most of the time I like to be able to dive it in steep and like a wing that’s not too efficient. I know it sounds crazy, but I like being able to get into a tight spots with a steep approach.
Many of the trikes I’ve flown can’t dive well enough for my taste. Admittedly this is not the usual preference.
That’s one thing I liked about the Manta…that baby could dive! That's what I like about helis and gyros...you can get really steep.
I used to do check-rides in my Stranger and some guys had a heck of a time getting it down. They struggled with landing long (plus the handling was atrocious).
I agree Cburg, a single surface wing that does not retain energy is really great for landing in tight spots. Like a Falcon trainer HG wing. You can come over an LZ at a safe height (high), then dive for your spot (it does not over-speed, coming down on a 45° angle) and when you round out it does not retain all that energy and go zipping clear across your landing zone into the trees / fence / etc on the other side (like a really efficient wing will). Not only does that quality make it safe for beginners, and easy to shoot approaches, but it is fun as well.
With a (reliable) motor on the back and altitude in your favor, efficiency of a trike wing is not as necessary as it is in a good soaring HG wing. Actually, the Falcon soars GREAT (slow enough to really core small light stuff with confidence), it just drops out of the sky on glide between thermals. Likewise, low efficiency trike wings use a lot of gas when you try and push them to go fast / far. Though they handle well, and can jog around a bush on short final in a postage stamp sized LZ well. Really efficient wings-- tough-- that's why they call them advanced-- better have your final perfected when you turn base, cuz perfecting it on short final tough
Floater trike wings are fun and the appropriate tool for close work (low and slow over minimal landing areas). Fast wings are not appropriate for that (though they may be better for getting you to the work area and back more efficiently). .. like we've been saying, no "BEST" configuration. A truly adjustable wing system helps expand into the good characteristics of both. Choose the tool appropriate and fly to it's strengths and know it's weaknesses and avoid situations where those weaknesses will become critical.
Thanks for those numbers Garrett...that is exactly the information I was curious about. And Cbug, I am looking forward to hearing your assessment on your Mako experience from your demo.
I’ve cross-posted this since I mentioned elsewhere.
I had a chance to fly the Mako 15. It’s an interesting and fun wing. It feels more like a 12 meter and the Orca 12 feels more like a 15 meter wing.
It’s the lightest handling and hottest 15 I can remember flying. It clearly outperforms the Orca 12 (which I also like) in every way.
In flying the Orca I always felt in needed more forward rake (to allow more pull-in). I had considered a speed bar for it, but never got around to it.
The Mako 15 bar is 18” more forward which really allows this wing to stretch its legs, but still can slow way down at full extension. I *really* like this change.
It seemed happy flying with the 503 which wasn’t working nearly as hard as on the Orca or Manta….yet easily outperforms both of them.
With its beefy frame and robust double sail the extra load of a big engine and two heavy pilots should not change it nice flying qualities.
As previously mentioned, one of my favorite wings for triking was the 1982 Bennett Streak 160 hang glider. It had a fully detached lower surface, so when I heard the Mako was to have a 100% fully detached lower surface, I was delighted.
IMO they fly better, fold better (upper and lower are not fighting each other), inspect easier, and are stronger (two full sails at the trailing edge instead of one).
Sure enough, the handling, and particularly the roll rate of the Mako, improved dramatically. Very quick roll reversals and light bar pressure compared to the Orca. The Orca seems more docile and heavier feeling overall compared to the Mako.
I think for most people the Mako would be a better choice (though perhaps not a beginner wing without adequate instruction…it is easier to land). It really is different, and certainly not like any other 15 I can think of. I can’t think of a similar sized wing to compare it to.
With a big engine this short-span, stiff-framed wing should really perform well with two people.
Demos are not always easy to arrange (most of the aircraft I’ve bought over the years I could not demo…like who’s going to let you demo a single place turbine helicopter?), I always recommend it…even though I don’t/can’t practice what I preach. This wing deserves a try to see if it’s a fit.
Great review Cbrug and thank you mucho! So I've read it four times trying to get a good bead on it. I'm a student (20 hours) and still learning a great deal.
Without some detailed photos it's hard to envision... How does the lower half of the wing "detach"? From the end retaining pulls on the lower battens? Are the lower and upper battens one? Does it use two sets of sprogs on each side? Are the sprogs part of the lower surface. Apologize for the barrage of questions but I can't envision how this works. I've looked at the online photos but it's not easy to see without it detached.
So I have a GTE with an old grey head 582. Your comment on bigger engine seems to indicate a 912 series engine if two up were the norm. By bigger you mean my 582, two up would be working too hard for the Mako?
That and like I said, I'm a student. I really am wanting more speed and less pressure to maneuver than my 19M NW currently is. I'm either going with a 15M NW Mustang (or) just going in big and getting some extra instruction and going into a Mako or something similar. As expensive as these toys are, the next wing I get, I'll be with for the long haul. Abid and another instructor I know suggests getting a double surface wing, instruction with it, that is in the speed range you will eventually want. They don't so much recommend a path of NW 19M to NW 15M to Mako. Just too expensive.
So I shot a lot at you and I appreciate your review. Anyone else who wants to give input with please jump in. I'd love to upgrade my engine but as I understand it, the GTE was not built for a 912 (even though it did come that way). It's just too light up front for a 912 as I am told. So I'm a 582 guy and at least it's easy to work on.
The 582 is fine with the Mako and will do anything you want to do. It won't be the fastest wing in the sky, but should cruise at a respectable speed. Contact Gibbo for some of the specifics.
As far as the sail it's basically like having two complete sails that are only sewn together at the leading edge...and are allowed to flex and shift independently in flight. They are retained...but not sewn at the trailing edge. This is not new...but it is uncommon...I've liked this approach since the early 80's when it was first tried.
Overall I'd say this wing is more advanced than the Orca (and NW15), but well worth the extra training you might need to fly it. You won't out-grow it like you might other wing choices.
Thanks for this report Cburg. The Mako is definitely a wing that I need to demo one of these days down the line. I'll see if Dan H. will let me take his for a spin the next time we meet up.
Cburg, that is a very nice report. So did you get some hard numbers, Did you stall the wing? And if you did, how was the Stall and what about the speed range. What was the slowest speed. What about landing speed? What is the slowest you can land this wing?
I flew my new Mako 15 for quite a while this weekend and saw quite a bit higher speeds (I have a 670 currently detuned to 582 levels) of 68-78MPH at bar neutral depending on my angle into the wind. Just a slight bar in added +5. I didn't test any pinned to the chest flying yet to see how far I could exceed 80.
It flies just as nice as my Orca and Mantas that I've flown but with a little easier turn (the Orcas and Mantas are already easy to turn) and no needed change for takeoff or landing other than a higher speed approach.
Gibbo's trike pitch device moved my pivot point to above the keel which just made the wing smooth throughout the full bar range instead of a lot of pressure on full forward or back.
Feel free to contact me with any questions.
I see pics already got posted of my flight. Great day in Houston for a cross country flight with a few fun thermals to play in.
How do you like your 670? Why did you detune it; trying to save the lifespan a bit? did Rotax Rick build it up for you or did you do it somewhere else? I have an older grey head that apparently is the best to convert. Maybe if I convert my 582, the Mako would be a better fit for two up....
I'll guess and say it's that he's using his current 582 exhaust which saves money.
Rotors Over The Rockies (this week in Utah) had a static thrust comp last year and the two 670 outshined everything, and even beat the 912s. I think I posted the results last year.
Many types of aircraft attend...if you are nearby check it out.
Comments
Cool, I'm planning to demo a Mako this week...I was flying the Orca and Manta.
Love the look of this wing, please post a flight review guys!
The reports I've read so far is that it has a better speed range than the Orca (more forward rake on the control bar) and uses less power...similar handling.
The smaller tips reduce pitch pressure and improves speed range too.
The detached lower surface usually improves handling...I triked a Bennett Streak back in 1982 and it was one of my very favorite trike wings...it too had a fully detached lower surface.
I'm very interested in your review as well. Could you please post some detailed pics of construction when you have the chance? I'm not familiar with the differences in a detached wing construction.
Will post detailed review and pics after I fly it some more.
I am interested is your report on this wing as well Cberg & Garrett. Stall, and flight speed numbers and your overall impression of how this wing flies would be much appreciated. My friend Dan just bought one so I hope to fly this wing sooner or later but your input would also add to the 'useful information' category.
Weather permitting a couple of us Houston pilots will be demo-ing the Mako 15 tomorrow.
A better assessement would be with a 503, 582, and 912 (single-place & two-place) to see what's really going on.
This will only be a short demo flight, but should provide some indication how it flies in at least one configuration.
As of now this is what I know:
Flying Airborne Edge X Classic with 582 and warp drive prop from runway at 400ftMSL. I am a 160 pound guy. Haven't gone two-up yet.
-Hands off trim is 55 kts at 5300 rpm. Push the bar out and it will be 52knts at 5000RPM level flight.
-Climb out 850-1000fpm
-Stalls at about 40
-Light in roll heavy in pitch
-drops like a rock power off 1000ft/minute down or worse
-Craftsmanship is quite good. The frame looks overbuilt (which I like) and the sail stitching is better than or equal to what I have seen on Northwings, Airbornes, or any hang glider I have ever had.
Nice Garrett! Thanks for the info.
So with the power off drop your talking about, how do you think it handles for landing flares? I'm more use to flying NW wings that you have to convince to come down. Does it slow up smoothly on round out?
It was good to hear that your review was from a 582; that's my ride as well. I was skeptical about owning that wing with my 582 and what it would take for RPMs in level flight to be adequate. My GTE cruises (one up) at around 4500 RPM. I would imagine that two up would be challenging for the 582 but if you get the opportunity please post your feeling related to that as well.
I've always (2 years now) heard very good praise related to Gibbos hardware and craftsmanship. I would say #1 which wing model and #2 my lack of experience are my big hold backs right now. That and money of course!
Please keep it coming Mako flyers!
Something you don’t hear talked about much is dive-ability. Sometimes…it’s nice to have a really efficient wing that requires a long low approach…especially if you happen to be dead-stick.
But most of the time I like to be able to dive it in steep and like a wing that’s not too efficient. I know it sounds crazy, but I like being able to get into a tight spots with a steep approach.
Many of the trikes I’ve flown can’t dive well enough for my taste. Admittedly this is not the usual preference.
That’s one thing I liked about the Manta…that baby could dive! That's what I like about helis and gyros...you can get really steep.
I used to do check-rides in my Stranger and some guys had a heck of a time getting it down. They struggled with landing long (plus the handling was atrocious).
I agree Cburg, a single surface wing that does not retain energy is really great for landing in tight spots. Like a Falcon trainer HG wing. You can come over an LZ at a safe height (high), then dive for your spot (it does not over-speed, coming down on a 45° angle) and when you round out it does not retain all that energy and go zipping clear across your landing zone into the trees / fence / etc on the other side (like a really efficient wing will). Not only does that quality make it safe for beginners, and easy to shoot approaches, but it is fun as well.
With a (reliable) motor on the back and altitude in your favor, efficiency of a trike wing is not as necessary as it is in a good soaring HG wing. Actually, the Falcon soars GREAT (slow enough to really core small light stuff with confidence), it just drops out of the sky on glide between thermals. Likewise, low efficiency trike wings use a lot of gas when you try and push them to go fast / far. Though they handle well, and can jog around a bush on short final in a postage stamp sized LZ well. Really efficient wings-- tough-- that's why they call them advanced-- better have your final perfected when you turn base, cuz perfecting it on short final tough
Floater trike wings are fun and the appropriate tool for close work (low and slow over minimal landing areas). Fast wings are not appropriate for that (though they may be better for getting you to the work area and back more efficiently). .. like we've been saying, no "BEST" configuration. A truly adjustable wing system helps expand into the good characteristics of both. Choose the tool appropriate and fly to it's strengths and know it's weaknesses and avoid situations where those weaknesses will become critical.
So, how does the Mako do?
We are supposed to give it a go tomorrow after lunch.
Thanks for those numbers Garrett...that is exactly the information I was curious about. And Cbug, I am looking forward to hearing your assessment on your Mako experience from your demo.
I’ve cross-posted this since I mentioned elsewhere.
I had a chance to fly the Mako 15. It’s an interesting and fun wing. It feels more like a 12 meter and the Orca 12 feels more like a 15 meter wing.
It’s the lightest handling and hottest 15 I can remember flying. It clearly outperforms the Orca 12 (which I also like) in every way.
In flying the Orca I always felt in needed more forward rake (to allow more pull-in). I had considered a speed bar for it, but never got around to it.
The Mako 15 bar is 18” more forward which really allows this wing to stretch its legs, but still can slow way down at full extension. I *really* like this change.
It seemed happy flying with the 503 which wasn’t working nearly as hard as on the Orca or Manta….yet easily outperforms both of them.
With its beefy frame and robust double sail the extra load of a big engine and two heavy pilots should not change it nice flying qualities.
As previously mentioned, one of my favorite wings for triking was the 1982 Bennett Streak 160 hang glider. It had a fully detached lower surface, so when I heard the Mako was to have a 100% fully detached lower surface, I was delighted.
IMO they fly better, fold better (upper and lower are not fighting each other), inspect easier, and are stronger (two full sails at the trailing edge instead of one).
Sure enough, the handling, and particularly the roll rate of the Mako, improved dramatically. Very quick roll reversals and light bar pressure compared to the Orca. The Orca seems more docile and heavier feeling overall compared to the Mako.
I think for most people the Mako would be a better choice (though perhaps not a beginner wing without adequate instruction…it is easier to land). It really is different, and certainly not like any other 15 I can think of. I can’t think of a similar sized wing to compare it to.
With a big engine this short-span, stiff-framed wing should really perform well with two people.
Demos are not always easy to arrange (most of the aircraft I’ve bought over the years I could not demo…like who’s going to let you demo a single place turbine helicopter?), I always recommend it…even though I don’t/can’t practice what I preach. This wing deserves a try to see if it’s a fit.
Great review Cbrug and thank you mucho! So I've read it four times trying to get a good bead on it. I'm a student (20 hours) and still learning a great deal.
Without some detailed photos it's hard to envision... How does the lower half of the wing "detach"? From the end retaining pulls on the lower battens? Are the lower and upper battens one? Does it use two sets of sprogs on each side? Are the sprogs part of the lower surface. Apologize for the barrage of questions but I can't envision how this works. I've looked at the online photos but it's not easy to see without it detached.
So I have a GTE with an old grey head 582. Your comment on bigger engine seems to indicate a 912 series engine if two up were the norm. By bigger you mean my 582, two up would be working too hard for the Mako?
That and like I said, I'm a student. I really am wanting more speed and less pressure to maneuver than my 19M NW currently is. I'm either going with a 15M NW Mustang (or) just going in big and getting some extra instruction and going into a Mako or something similar. As expensive as these toys are, the next wing I get, I'll be with for the long haul. Abid and another instructor I know suggests getting a double surface wing, instruction with it, that is in the speed range you will eventually want. They don't so much recommend a path of NW 19M to NW 15M to Mako. Just too expensive.
So I shot a lot at you and I appreciate your review. Anyone else who wants to give input with please jump in. I'd love to upgrade my engine but as I understand it, the GTE was not built for a 912 (even though it did come that way). It's just too light up front for a 912 as I am told. So I'm a 582 guy and at least it's easy to work on.
The 582 is fine with the Mako and will do anything you want to do. It won't be the fastest wing in the sky, but should cruise at a respectable speed. Contact Gibbo for some of the specifics.
As far as the sail it's basically like having two complete sails that are only sewn together at the leading edge...and are allowed to flex and shift independently in flight. They are retained...but not sewn at the trailing edge. This is not new...but it is uncommon...I've liked this approach since the early 80's when it was first tried.
Overall I'd say this wing is more advanced than the Orca (and NW15), but well worth the extra training you might need to fly it. You won't out-grow it like you might other wing choices.
Thanks for this report Cburg. The Mako is definitely a wing that I need to demo one of these days down the line. I'll see if Dan H. will let me take his for a spin the next time we meet up.
Cburg, that is a very nice report. So did you get some hard numbers, Did you stall the wing? And if you did, how was the Stall and what about the speed range. What was the slowest speed. What about landing speed? What is the slowest you can land this wing?
Posted some more pics and info from the weekend on the Mako.
Great report, sounds like a cool wing! Thanks for all the pics too
Awesome Garrett; thank you for the info and pics. I can clearly see the two layers now and have a better idea how it works.
I flew my new Mako 15 for quite a while this weekend and saw quite a bit higher speeds (I have a 670 currently detuned to 582 levels) of 68-78MPH at bar neutral depending on my angle into the wind. Just a slight bar in added +5. I didn't test any pinned to the chest flying yet to see how far I could exceed 80.
It flies just as nice as my Orca and Mantas that I've flown but with a little easier turn (the Orcas and Mantas are already easy to turn) and no needed change for takeoff or landing other than a higher speed approach.
Gibbo's trike pitch device moved my pivot point to above the keel which just made the wing smooth throughout the full bar range instead of a lot of pressure on full forward or back.
Feel free to contact me with any questions.
I see pics already got posted of my flight. Great day in Houston for a cross country flight with a few fun thermals to play in.
Thanks Dan,
How do you like your 670? Why did you detune it; trying to save the lifespan a bit? did Rotax Rick build it up for you or did you do it somewhere else? I have an older grey head that apparently is the best to convert. Maybe if I convert my 582, the Mako would be a better fit for two up....
I'll guess and say it's that he's using his current 582 exhaust which saves money.
Rotors Over The Rockies (this week in Utah) had a static thrust comp last year and the two 670 outshined everything, and even beat the 912s. I think I posted the results last year.
Many types of aircraft attend...if you are nearby check it out.
Yes, they will be doing a Static Thrust Comp again this year...anybody is welcome. Wish I could go.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40680&page=2