Flying in Turbulence and Thermal Activity
Hi all,
I hope I am NOT the only one here who is not entirely comfortable flying in Turbulence and Thermal activity. (despite the fact that I have been flying for a little while now).
Few weeks ago, I was flying with an experienced (Trike pilot friend) and he noticed that flying through the Turbulence, I was pulling the bar in so he said to me, just let the wing fly where it wants to fly (trim speed) and just correct when the pitch and bank is significant. And so I did and realized that I have been doing this incorrectly for the most part. By pulling the bar in and holding it with a white knuckled grip, I maybe guilty of transferring a lot of bad energy through the Trike carriage.
I am not ashamed to admit that I may have developed some bad habits, so some advanced training is needed.
But I am curious to find out that how do you fly through Turbulence and Thermal activity. And how exactly have you improved your handling of Turbulence and Thermal activity. What is the best way to expand one's knowledge and getting comfortable flying in turbulent conditions? What are some of the techniques that you think are good for flying in rough conditions?
Thanks,
Rizzy
Comments
Hi Rizzy.
flying through turbulences and strong thermal is not comfortable for each trike pilot. In the past I tried avoid turbulences and thermal. At first the wings here was quite large and and older technology. I remember once I flew through strong turbulence near ground and I was scared, then I pull the bar for higher speed. the result: bent buttens in top wing surface...
Newest wings are more resistant against turbulences. As your friend told you let the wing to do what it wants to do. Correct a big banks only.
Best to just keep the trike right side up and let the rest take care of itself. The trike will generally be fine. For the pilot I recommend increasing your exposure less laminar air over time to get your comfort level to increase. Try flying a bit later in the day and increase that bit by bit. In the Tahoe Rocks video I was fully expecting to encounter turbulence. I had little to no wind on the surface when I took off near the lake (just look at the lake surface), and a 20mph tail wind as I got to altitude to clear the pass. The mountains there drop from 10000 ft to a 4700 ft valley floor, and thus the potential for rotor is obvious. So I knew what was coming and just dropped throttle and rode it down.
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- Ken@knussear
LeoKen liked this
Ken, I had the same thing happen to me on this Big Bear flight. Took off from Apple Valley airport in the shadows of the small mountains to it's east with the sun just rising. Calm, sub 5 mph air.
I turned east to my heading and started climbing to clear the mountains which are roughly 800-1000 feet or so above the desert. All was well, until I crested the top and was roughly 1/4 mile past the little mountain.
We went from 0 wind to 20 mph tail wind in a heart beat. Turbulence, rotors, the whole gang was there.
You can't fight it, so I backed off the throttle, and rode it out. Airspeed indicator showed 98 mph GS and 70 AS.
About 4 miles past the mountain I dropped above the desert roughly 400 agl, and it smoothed out....but the 20 mph eastern wind was steady. The desert doesn't offer a whole lot of wind markers....everything is so stiff and dry. But a camper had an American flag on top of his RV and that was quite an eye opener. Stiff as a board pointing directly east.
We circled some friends that were camping there and started my climb out to Big Bear which sits at 6700. Once I got pasted 4000, all was smooth with roughly a 10 east wind but very laminar.
Last but not least....before Trike flying I had ridden and raced dirt bikes in all sorts of conditions. If you guys have ever ridden a motorcycle thru a sand wash, then you know what the handle bars feel like, and the last thing you wanna do is fight it. Same holds true for the control bar it seems. Good stuff and a must for everyone to experience.
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
KenLeo liked this
Love that Big Bear flight! I did a CC from El Mirage to Big Bear, then to Flabob (There was a canvas aircraft flyin happenin) and back up the Cajon to Mirage again. Beautiful flight and Amazing day!
http://alltrikes.com/elgg/videos/view/32079/a-weekend-in-september-part-2-journey-to-big-bear-and-flabob-flying-circus
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
JozinkoLeo liked this
As I said better is let the wing do what it wants to do... But sometime it is not possible. On September 2015 I decided to fly to other airport to make a final test for a student there. Windy and thermal. I fought everyone minute of the flight. You can see the video from 3:40 and next 20second the vario showed (the last equipmenton left) +6m/s (1181 ft/min) then -6m/s and next +4,5m/s... I cant let my wing to do wat it wants :)
http://alltrikes.com/elgg/videos/view/91533/novy-dvor#.Whs3nUrT7cs
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- white eagle@wambleska
Leowhite eagle liked this
There are certain situations you cannot Joz, I agree. That was a long flight to fight so much turbulence!
@ ken, never saw that video of yours before! Awesome!
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
RizzyWizzyLeo liked this
I appreciate everyone's contribution. Another question is that during calm morning, has anyone noticed significant turbulence near lakes (and I am talking about on calm mornings). I don't know what causes them but I would think that the temperature difference is the culprit. This year there were a few times where I really felt quite some turbulence over lakes and even the snake river on morning flights.
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
- white eagle@wambleska
ULtrikepilotLeo liked this
white eagle liked this
Yes temperature difference or delta is likely cause. Just remember that at a micrometeriorlogical level all winds and turbulence are caused by deltas in pressure or temperature or both.
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- Leo@LeoIezzi
white eagleLeo liked this
Riz one thing not mentioned here is sink holes. Flying over water temp differenses can create some very defined sink. Your flying along fine then wam sudden loss of altitude and big dip and then your out of it before you realize what happen. I see this as much more defined than normal turbulance. But the sudden drop can be nerve racking when not exspecting it.
Ultratrikepilot and myself both flying in realative smooth conditions around plains found ourselves punching into some pretty exstream turbulance climbing over mt baldy into hot springs. I remember joe talking about going weightless in his seat. I think we both faced a few minutes in a washing machine but the solution was clear. No need to push our luck.
For a general rule iam much more worried about surface low agl turbulance and surface rotors, mechanical turbulance. Ridge rotors on the lee sides! Other than giant groundbreaking popping thermals which can be pretty violent in itself general convective turbulance i think more as a speedboat riding over choppy water. So letting the wing absorb it and feeding correction when necessary. Changing altitude to find some smoother air.
When i was in oz a mate let me fly his airplane for a long leg and i was listening on the radio all the trikes getting hammered. But climbing up under the strato cumulus their was a nice gradient of perfectly smooth air. That was the roughest air with all the trikes and many had difficulty landing in muldura . Already landed i watched jozzy exicute a very nice landing in exstream turbulance. I was like the slovakian dudes got talent. Its very flat in the austrailian outback so very important to reckognize the difference between flying turbulance in laminar air in flat typography as opose to mountain flying terrain where you and i live.
Iam soooo much more cautious about conditions here. Nothing wrong with that. So much to concider what wing do i have. 503 single surface, double surface with 912 .
Recently i flew from hot springs to polsen and flew down the mission range with minimal turbulance crossing some peaks with altitude. Then to 10 thousand ft to fly Mt Mcdonald. All smooth till i turned on a glidescope for st ignacious montana. Got my arse kicked the rest of the way down like someone just flushed me into a toilet bowl. I had heard that st ignacious had a reputation for suprising conditions. Truth is we have to be ready for changing unexspected conditions anytime we fly. But what worries me the most is when theres obsticles that can disturb my foward airspeed. Altitude is your friend!
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- white eagle@wambleska
Leowhite eagle liked this
Riz, if you took off on a calm morning, say sub 5 mph, and crested over a hill, or any other area that the sun starts to warm up the ground, you will find turbulence. That's knows as convective heating.
In the open desert with small hills creating funnel areas the sun can cause a Venturi effect drawing air in as the sun heats up the eastern surfaces features. And it can be drastic, like I said earlier....less than 5 mph at the airport, and blowing 20 just a few miles away.
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- white eagle@wambleska
Jozinkowhite eagle liked this
Generaly you have to know what weather will be at the day. Current weather forecast is able to show you what weather will be in specific hour on specific place. There is nothing you can surprised you. Other way is like Leo said- over hills, like David said over lakes. I know some pilots who was surprised by higher Earth gravity over lakes :) and washed their trikes. There is thermal effect.
Turbulence you can find between hills too but it depends on a wind. Still you can expect it.
Other is conscious risks.
Did you ever fly into tunderstorm? I did... There was a thousands of turbulencies in "the same time". Was your front wheel the top point of your trike? Mine was... Why it was? Because of pilots stupidity. Because we thought we are better, stronger and smarter than mother nature. I was young strong pilot and I hadnt respect and not fear. After this expeience, when my wing was below me, I have a big respect against the nature forces and a BIG respect against tunderstorms. A weather forecast is my "close friend".
But I have to say modern wings are doing 99% of work instead you in thermal or turbulence weather. You have to correct abnormal activities or avoid bad weather.
Hey Dave why you didnt write about my skills before the Sandpoint fly in? Maybe I could fly more there :)))
I did jozzy. I told lots of folks that you were very exsperienced pilot. I know that i didnt inform you that i couldnt leagllly take you in my trike. And i would have had no problem you flying my trike but you would have been required to have a fully licenced cfi in the backseat. I thought you would of got more airtime.very sorry bro.
Hahahahha David, dont worry! That should be a joke only :))) We will fly next time...
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- Jozinko@Sajan
white eagleJozinko liked this
Rizzy 3/4 of most pilots get uncomfortable in turbulance. And 99% of pilots get uncomfortable in severe turbulance. And 1 % of pilots ither have an encredable amount of skills and talent and hours flying and a guardian angel thats always on the job!
Now i dont know how close i am on statistics but i bet iam fairly close.
One thing i have done for many years is been very observant to risk management. It breaks down to so many catagorys.
( Analizing properly ones own skills)
( aeronotical/meterological knowlege)
And many other.
A few things that have always been a point of interest and i think that are important and rarely talked about are (fear factors)
How you manage your fear, mental flying attitude
I have observed that this breaks down in a few catagorys as well.
( Uncontrolled fear) (controlled fear) ( no fear)
The first being very dangerous to new pilots and the last being the most dangerous to advanced pilots.
Fear has its place in protecting a pilot if its understood and managed.
Panic is a symptom of unmanaged fear!
Good reasoning , decision making under severe stress is a symptom of of managed fear.
Little is it known how much are emotions are transfered through the controll bar. I think this is one of the beauties of trike flight. Being so emotionally conected through the controll bar to the wing.
You are not alone pulling in on that bar in turbulance rizzy. Thats why most cfis work very hard to get their students to relax! But i think a more in depth understanding of fear management is important to good pilotage. First to admit your fear. Who ever says they havint been afraid flying i would hit the bs button !
Sometimes its good to be afraid. Fear may be telling you your not ready for this yet.
I learned a long time ago not to be too encouraged by others decision to fly. I make my own determination soley on my own abilitys and i recognize my own shortcomings!
I compete with myself, meaning iam not in a race to be larry mednick.
We each have are own learning flight schedule.
Some of us have the freedom to fly all the time. And some of us have to find that magic moment when the get a break from other important parts of are bizzy life to tweek in a day flying. I am my own pilot?
I make it a point to watch and learn and listen to others exspecially the talented exsperienced but also those who are making mistakes. Because we all make mistakes!
Relaxing to trim is good advise rizzy but not only relaxing but a good analization of why you are unconfortable in turbulace and define that as well. Theirs a wide variety. My best understanding is that you will always be somewhat uncomfortable in turbulance. I know i am to some degree. Thats part of the beauty of it you and the unseen air. Theirs that faith component. Its a challenging fight with all your emotions. But sometimes i get my butt kicked and have to turn my tail and run for the familiar runway. And other times iam like happy with myself because that rowdy air didnt fool me today. I fly my best when i know who is pilot in command. I fly my best when i have my wits and emotions in check! I fly my best when iam managing my fear.
Your a banker rizzy think of turbulance as your checkbook. You dont want to ignore it. You dont want to have it out of balance. But you most certainly want to manage it.
Just my opinions here and i welcome criticizem!
In my hang gliding days yes i didnt make the registers of most advanced pilot. I got a lot of sled rides . Never broke any records of achievment. But iam glad that i had the chance and exsperience to fly like a bird. And that puts me in a catagory of achievment that billions of souls back to the stone age only had the dream to percieve.
Its a good thing rizzy you admit your fear, learn to manage it and you are probably doing that to some degree. And be your own best pilot.
Not trying to change your topic riz but i thought id throw this video in for fear management. How do you think this pilot did .what would you or i do differently?
Looks like it came pretty unexspectantly. What or how do we manage fear to make the best deciotional
Outcome when things get demanding in the process weather an e/o or severe turbulance?
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- white eagle@wambleska
Jozinkowhite eagle liked this
Great article David!
I always tell to my students - no students already, they had their pilot licences. OK, now you know how to fly and it depends on you if your skills will grow up or not. Im here to help you if you want. But you have to push your limits or set your limits yourself. Step by step.
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- Jozinko@Sajan
white eagleJozinko liked this
Sooo true my dear friend
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- white eagle@wambleska
Noel Cwhite eagle liked this
Hi White eagle,
Great summation of a number of issues relating to this topic. I believe the prop strike in the video you attached was as a result of the pilots tent breaking free of the constraints and going through the prop. (a whole other topic for discussion). That would have been a highly stressful event and all things considered he did well.
Hi noel. Thanks i knew something went through the prop and you can see damage to the wing.
The reference to the video was to educate just how fast a condition can place you in frightening death defiging dicision making process. Weather its severe turbulance , medical, structural ,engine out or other. Your ability to manage fear and make critically good decisions will highly effect you chances of having a better outcome. That process starts with management and controlling your fear in thermic air!
That pilot in the video had alot to deal with and very quickly. So no matter how we may see ourselves in the same condition and how we think we would of reacted for the most part we must conclude ( He Survived)
I thought it would be good to bring up the fear factor subject. Particularly because it is rarely discussed and highly important to rizzys subject. For instance how offen do we read or hear information on the psychology of flight? But its quite important to most all aspects of your flying.
For instance rizzy bravely admits and ive heard him mention it before the last couple of years of his uncomforte levels in rowdy air. And you know thats ok! Now their are many levels to uncomfotable and that word in some instances can mask darn right fear in some pilots. I once watched a hang gliding friend who did pretty good at the low altitude training hill. But doing a flight of altitude at a steep rocky ridge his launch was good but as fear took over him because of instant altitude and made a fatal mistake of turning back into the ridge. One of two carabiners i still carry on My belt to this day ( in memory of my friend Bruce kenyon woody)
So its a very important subject i think rizzy brings up being uncomfortable in turbulance. And i might admit that sometimes iam too. Relaxing on the bar and letting it fly slower and trim is great advice with some altitude . Relaxing is a by product of managing your fear. How we analize develope our fear management here is so important to how we will manage PIC when presented with a more challenging situation like when your pop tent goes through the wing. Every imput starts with your brain!
Hi guys. I have a extreme fear of turbulence. The terrain where I live is mountainous and there is always something that gets me white knuckled. Larry Mednick put a video on here somewhere that helped. He said to try to keep your elbows down and it helps. A trike pilot friend made me a pair of those vertical grips and it automatically keeps the elbows down. It would help if I flew more than 20 hours a year, but that is not to be. I can drive 1300 miles to a week long fly in and log only 30 minutes total.
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- Jozinko@Sajan
white eagleJozinko liked this
Hi karl it was awesome meeting you last year.
Id like to make some suggestions. Larry mednicks advice is great but lowering your elbows does not completely address your fear.
Your fear is what you need to address, when , why and what to do about it.
First a good understanding of the purpose of fear and realizing you will never get rid of it. (Its there for a reason). Fear is your alarm system.like a alarm clock wakes you up do retake on your thinking process. Fear is like the emotional equivilant of pain. Well iam not sticking my pleasure finger in that turbulance fire again? Its like having esp of impending danger.
So that leads you too , well i dont want to lose that alarm clock. So fear must work hand in hand with your mental thinking and physical reaction processes.
MANAGE your fear like grooming your hair or growing a garden. That takes a good analisis of where you need work.
What makes you afraid
Bring it in to reason
Take small bites at a time.
You are not competeing with others who do not
Share your fear.
Realize that those people who have no fear get in
Trouble just as much as those who have exsessive
Fear!
Use all the tools you are givin to manage your fear
To the center catagory
UNCONTROLLED FEAR = deadly
(CONTROLLED FEAR)= working in unison
NO FEAR = deadly
TOOLS TO HELP YOU MANAGE THAT FEAR
gaining more exsperience with a good patient instructor that understands you have a problem managing fear in certain conditions.
Advice from pilots like larry mednick and asuming the best pilot position to let the wing manage the turbulance to some degree!
Knowing when you are in serious danger compared to imagined danger and the ability to totally avoid the first.
Gaining a good complete meteological knowlege of the conditions you fly in.
Gaining a fairly steady but incramented induction in to different conditions and learning how to manage your emotions and maintaing athority
If you are confident you can maintain controll authority you will find it easier to -'xxx Manage your fear.
Dont think you are any less than any other pilot
You have the same potential as any other pilot.
ASK ANY OTHER PILOT. Larry Mednick, Henry
Iam sure they will tell you that they have had their kahonies compressed more than once.
Dont be afraid to back off your flight envelope .if you feel threatened to much back off a bit. Many pilots have to do that.
Understanding alltitudes
Most people have a fear of hieghts.
But in actuality you are in more danger flying near the ground. ALTITUDE IS YOUR FRIEND unless you decide to fly near a cumili nimbus anvil head or ifr conditions.
When you realize your skills Flying small to moderate turbulance should not present a uncontrolled amount of fear. But it wont entirely be iliminated iether and like a good game of football can become a plesurable challengeing exsperience.
Take the time after each flight to analize your fear reaction. Makes you a better pilot
LAST BUT NOT LEAST AND ANY GOOD INSTRUCTOR WILL TELL YOU THIS.
Many people have the dream
Not everyone has the right skill set
Know when to quit
If you find yourself unable to deal with any bumps
If you find yourself unable to overcome constant
Uncontrolled fear.
Dont be afraid to excuse your self from this type of sport.
You must MANAGE YOUR FEAR
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- Jozinko@Sajan
RizzyWizzyJozinko liked this
I went and read all the thread all over again. I want to thank all of you. I especially wanted to thank David (White Eagle) to take time to share his expertise.
Thanks so much for taking time to help me understand and improve my own flying. I truly appreciate it.
Regards,
Rizzy
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- Jozinko@Sajan
white eagleJozinko liked this
Great blog rizzy. And one ive said before needs more coverage and debate. After listning and talking to many pilots one common denominator seems to top most subjects . And rightly so fear of loss of controll.
I will fully admit that getting in that not in full controll felling is one that scares me as well! Exspesially trying to stick a good landing in unexspected conditions!
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- Jozinko@Sajan
ULtrikepilotJozinko liked this
I just saw this great video (thanks Bryan) where Cedric talks about fear and thought it might be helpful for some. I personally can relate to most of his points even though I put them in a context quite different from wing suit flying. The idea is to harness the flow or synergy between fear, educated risk taking, preparation, positivity and belief in the future with a real focus on living right now. Enjoy
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- Ken@knussear
white eagleKen liked this
I recomend this ted talk to everyone. Just great having this defined. The only part i kinda disagree with is talent depending on how you define it.
So i might say or add that talent is an ability to learn quickly. Yes all people can learn givin enough energy and time. But just like it wouldnt be a good idea for spanky from the lil rascals to perform poverotti. I think there is a point where you should draw the line with high risk sports.
Trike flying , hang gliding is not one that alows you alot of do overs from repeated mistakes. If you are not learning on a fairly graduated schedule than truthfully you may want to persue something else you are more suited for. Yes everyone can learn . But not all should be incouraged. I believe everyone has talents to some degree. Risks vary with individual personality. Someone who freezes up with fear is not onlyonly a danger to themselves but also their instructor. I would never support an instructor that wouldnt at some point direct them in other avenues.
This may or may not be the intended opinion of this video, Iam just trying to clarify it a bit because i do appreciate others talent(gift of learning and demonstrating a subject somewhat spontanious)!
I really like the idea of flow as an example and how its used. To me flow is when all the right stuff comes together in your emotions and thought process.
Detemination with full analysis, fear but controlled , and being rewarded well above the risk.
I look for that on every flight. Thanks for putting this up joe