Ultralight or Part 103 trikes
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Ultralight or Part 103 trikes
Electric Trike?
You know, these guys from Earthstar are only about 50 miles form me and part of the PRUA club I belong to.
Maybe Ken ( @Knussear ) & I could get some used stuff from him, if Rizzy can get us a good deal on a engine-less soaring trike.
You know a couple of the things I like best about electric are that 1) they are super reliable motors with very little maintenance. 2) You can easily put an electric upside down in your car or RV without it spilling fuel/oil/smell and mess all over.
Many other advantages too.
Moving this subject to it's own rightful place from (http://alltrikes.com/elgg/photos/image/19436/turtle-pac-fuel-bladder)
XC Triker 9 hours ago
You having to fork out $16 Large cburg? Ouch!! --> soaring trike-- no fuel (not much) needed ;)
I'm definitely going to get one-- need someone to share one with. would really like electric though ...
Rizzy, do you have any used ones for sale?
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ULtrikepilot
ULtrikepilot 4 hours ago
$16K for a fuel bladder! That is a huge Ouch! Exactly, for the price of a bladder on an R22 you can get a very nice soaring trike.
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ULtrikepilot
ULtrikepilot 4 hours ago
XC, another approach you might consider. Get a good solid UL soaring trike with an engine, tested, proven, etc. Once you have an opportunity to research best electric motors, matching prop, battery technology, you can choose your electric propulsion system. On many light part 103 trikes, the engine mounts are quite simple. Should be relatively straightforward to retrofit with you own electric motor mount and battery mounts/support. If done thoughtfully, it might be relatively easy to switch back and forth from electric to gas engine. There might be times when you would like/need to fly under power for longer periods of times (for example to reach some good ridge soaring) and gas engine might be better suited. From what I have seen, large capacity Li batteries can be quite a few grand. Lower capacity Li batteries may only be good enough for a few minutes to get you airborne. Just a thought.
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RizzyWizzy
RizzyWizzy 32 minutes ago
XC Triker, no I don't have any used ones for sale but if you are interested I can get you one without the engine, just the buggy and the wing. And like ULtrikepilot said you could put your own electric engine configuration on the trike.
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@AceTrikeUSA , how'd you like to get together with us and Earthstar to investigate an electric trike? Mike from Earthstar is very sharp. I bet we could do a joint venture to build one.
This was a very informative video, thanks for posting it XC. One thing I loved about it was that according to FAA the 5 gallon fuel in battery terms would be the 5 gallon "volume" and not the weight. This is significant because as technology improves that could translate to way more hours of flight time compared to using just 5 gallons of gas.
Thanks Riz, and this vid was Uploaded on Dec 29, 2011 !! So 3 years ago technology wize !!!
Yeah, Mark spins my head talking to him-- he knows a boat load. I consulted him when I went to install the LiFe battery-- was it safe ??? He felt it was a very safe technology. He is not using LiFe in his, because energy density is not enough-- when you only have 5 "gallons" of space and comparing to a very energy dense material like gas ....
XC, my business partner and I both love electric propulsion but from a business standpoint it is not a very viable plan. From an engineering/design standpoint electric propulsion is simple, very simple. Arguably safer too in terms of reliability. The problem is that this industry (wsc trikes) is already a very niche market and electric propulsion adds exponentially to the retail cost of a machine while also hindering range. Net result-- an even more niche market.
I would however happily sell a trike and wing with no engine if you would like to throw a prototype together. The motors and controllers and related disconnects/wiring components are fairly affordable and available. The issue mostly lies in the batteries. They just don't have the energy storage:weight ratio they need to make sense and the cost will make you dizzy. But as I said if you can deal with range limitation and can handle some light fabrication, our frame would be an excellent candidate due to its' light weight/high strength and the included vertical engine mount we already use.
Let me know
Hey Ace, I am interested. I'm just doing some background sourcing and research. I've always been interested in electric propulsion, and for a soaring trike, really the requirement is not "range" (as in XC) but can it climb to a usable altitude at least twice (once to start soaring) and once more as a "low save." Your trike with 34 HP can climb 1000 ft/minute-- so only 3-4 minutes to a usable soaring height to shut off the motor. Let's say an electric trike can achieve only half that climb rate-- then 8 minutes. Twice = 16 minutes of battery time. Given that limited requirement, the battery expenditure can be much less / lighter weight (which improves climb). Let's suppose you increase the duration to 30 minutes-- I think for a soaring trike it's doable / potentially cost effective. For an XC trike, even an XC light / 103 trike-- not even in the ball park.
The other thing that makes electric for soaring so great is- reliability and nearly 99.99% guaranteed "re-start" You can shut off an electric motor as many times as you like, shock cool it, and flip the on switch and it is much much much more likely to instantly jump to life than a 2-stroke (and at full throttle immediately- no needed warmup time).
I had been hoping for the past few years that a viable off the shelf option for soaring would happen-- but there's not too many right now. But, with the above video I just realized that the guys at Earthstar can not only likely help me with the electrical engineering, but they probably also have some prior motors and controllers from prior versions that we could use for much cheaper (used prices).
Ken & I have been batting this idea around for some time. We've been looking at used light trikes with blown motors as a starting point. Ken & I are both excellent engineers and mechanically inclined- I'm pretty creative and have designed many successful projects. Ken is more motor oriented having swapped out many non-like engines from his various vehicles for years.
What we're thinking of now, with the potential of Earthstar's help is a joint venture for a doable electric soaring trike. If you could potentially push toward the sale of a trike base at cost, we would perfect and document the design and push it toward an add on electric kit status especially built for the AceTrike (so you could offer that niche), but that could be used on other trike bases as well. We'd definitely promote your product in the doing so. If we failed to produce a working product in a specified period of time (say 18 months or so), we would then pay the previously agreed difference between the cost we bought the project frame at, and what you would have sold it at retail for-- so you would essentially be at near zero risk.
Other potential resources include Cal Poly University a few minutes from my house. If we partnered on a project with them, all parts could be written off by the supplying company as donations. There are several other bidirectional benefits to an association as well.
So, basically we're looking at forming a joint venture.
Ken & I were talking about cool future engines just for fun. he found this video:
and guess who's in it at the end EARTHSTAR !!!!
Ken also found this engine:
http://wouldntcareless.blogspot.it/2012/08/the-clenergy-rotary-diesel-engine-ready.html
Can you imagine 200 HP from 50 Kg (110lbs)
These engine guys are looking for people to prototype on an aircraft-- any takers?
I'm going to build an electric one ;)
I'll have to ask the Earthstar guys to give the back story on the Dunville engine.
XC, im not opposed to this at all. Would just require one additional liability waiver for the modifications.
Just a thought... you may want to consider a twin motor counter rotating setup with small props. Our Stock motor mount plate could easily be adapted for this and this setup would have some additional benefits.
Cheaper, easily attainable motors, controllers, and props.
lower pack voltage
Lower gauge cabling
Possibly less drag (I would assume, I'm not an aeronautical engineer) when soaring then one large windmilling prop
Cancelation of p factor from one high torque motor
Obviously the drag part is the big question. Since your goal is soaring, this would be your main concern. Many people have used hinged props on soaring trikes but they are expensive and can be problematic.
Here is a video of a gentleman who did exactly what I'm describing, on a 2 place no less!
Twin-electric engined trike by Manfred Ruhmer:
If your serious, give me a call so we can talk offline.
Thanks Ace, That is a great idea! We're not planning to corner the market on electric trikes, or sell them necessarily. Open source projects have been really successful in other areas. There is no reason we can't form a group here on AT to brainstorm some open source ideas- that will be available to everyone in the future. We saw this video (or one like it before) with two props- perfectly legal on 103. One additional thing it does it get the props in cleaner air for better bite-- kinda like that long prop extension did on that other trike. It had a feathering prop that folded forward-- I didn't really like that setup at fist, but it's main advantage was cleaner air for the props to bite. Id' like a folding prop for a soaring trike.
Excellent point regarding the cleaner air and better bite for those outboard props.
I would be happy to sell you rolling chassis and wings at a discounted OEM price if you decide to move forward. An LLC is an inexpensive and easy thing to set up and could be a fun side project and source of income for you and your friend.
Another option would be to buy one of our trikes and design a simple plug n play bolt on system for our AEROTRYK ss frame and just build them. People could buy the trike and wing from us and the propulsion system from you and build it themselves quickly. The key would be to make it completely plug n play and simple. No drilling or fabrication at all. Americans are also quite price sensitive so creative design and sourcing would be vital to keep retail costs down.
Again, let me know if you want to move forward. I have a couple more trikes coming in 4 weeks. We add the engines here so I can easily get a roller out to you with no engine. Also keep in mind our wing has an in flight trimmer which no one else can claim and would be nice for what you are trying to do.
As a long time multi-engine pilot and multi-engine instructor keep in mind the following 7 twin engine configurations (all of which have been used with success):
1.) push/pull (in-line)
2.) push/push (in-line - I made a trike with this set-up)
3.) Coaxial Contra-rotating ) (in-line - this is what I’m building now)
4.) Counter-rotating (side-by-side) outboard rotation
5.) Counter-rotating (side-by-side) inboard rotation
6.).Rotating same direction (side-by-side)
7.) Overlapping blades (side-by-side) any rotation
Each one has its pros and cons. There is much written on the subject. Key words to search: Critical Engine, Spiraling Slipstream, P-Factor, Torque, Blue line.
Let me know if you want any explanations.
Sorry I didn't check in 'till late here-- I was attending Bill's memorial on top of our hang gliding launch.
This photo was taken the day Bill passed. To most, it's a beautiful photo from Cayucos looking toward Morro Rock about 5 miles in the distance. To pilots, they'll look at that cloud and recognize a convergence lift band pointing the way toward the holy-grail of flights at Cayucos-- from launch to "the rock" Bill would've set it up that way.
@ULT sorry I missed your call-- I'll call you tomorrow.
Thank you Ace-- that all sounds great! Let's discuss the nitty gritty stuff off-line and continue the open source discussion here. If anyone would like this moved to a semi-private group on AllTrikes so it doesn't crowd up the activity page-- let us know. Everyone is more than welcome to join in.
Cburg-- You always have a lot of great input and experience. What would be your top 3 guesses for most successful configuration and why? (Single motor, twin motor variant 1, Twin motor variant 2 or other).
The simplest and probably cheapest is side-by-side same direction. There are several disadvantages.
The best, as far as torque and P-factor, is the coaxial contra-rotating…that’s what I’m building. More expensive and complicated.
I wonder if you could use large scale electric RC aircraft motors and controllers. I believe they make 1/3 scale RC electric aircraft. This may sound crazy but 2 or 3 smaller motors and props could be a good and inexpensive option. Maybe even set up the rig on a hinge so it could fold the whole assembly down to reduce drag while gliding.
Remember, with electric motors hp is not the most important number, thrust is your goal. I believe a German company just did a manned multi - rotor flight on a prototype 2 seater using what looked like maybe 16 little electric motors and small (maybe 30") long props. And that was vertical flight! Company: www.e-volo.com
I think I have had too much coffee this morning.
There have been several aircraft that employ RC motors.
The turbine Cri Cri uses RC engines as I recall.
Yeah, the e-volo multi-rotor copter was pretty interesting/cool. I think 1 or 2 motors is plenty for a trike-- at 3 motors which way do you rotate the props? At 4, what's the particular advantage again??-- smaller sized motors / availability? -> it seems to me it's pushing diminishing returns, when there are definitely single motors that can due the job-- going to 2, you get the biggest reduction (50%) in size of motor, for increased complexity (double the wiring and mounts)-- you get a little redundancy (safety), and can cancel out torque.
Funny you mentioned the folding mounts-- I just called Ken (@knussear) yesterday to say I had an idea: twin motors like in the photo above, that swing back behind the pilot (into the slipstream / fairing) when not powered-- like bringing your hands together from a wide open palms out embrace to the clapping position. That doesn't seem too difficult to execute-- little more complexity (not too much), better streamlining for soaring.
CBurg, aren't most electric motors bi-directional? Ie, you wouldn't need a redrive to reverse one motor. Or am I wrong? (hey, that brings up a wild idea, reversing the motor(s) on landing as an additional braking action !!! ;) Or slightly reversing one motor to help yaw the glider in a thermal?
Here's another open source question for you guys? If the motor not being behind the pilot (or out on a long shaft) makes it more efficient by providing cleaner airflow/bite to it, then does the motor itself spoil the air to the prop? The motor on the Earthstar eGull in the movie seems to be about 18" in diameter- is there much efficiency to be gained in airflow near the hub of a prop to be worth moving the electric motors out of the way of the prop as well (via a belt drive or etc)?
Just announced a plug-in electric module for the Archeopteryx light sailplane.
I put in a call to Mark Beirle just now, left a message. Had spoken with an employee friend of mine by email earlier who said he thinks Mark would be interested in helping. I'll keep you advised.
@Rizzy , can you have Ace call / email me please?
The Jet man uses 4 RC turbines !! ;) but, I'm really just interested in making an electric trike ;)
Hey, sorry I haven't posted much lately-- I'm out of town (not flying :( but having fun). In fact, I'm up near Doug from Boulder Creek's / Watsonville (who also happens to be a great mechanic & A&P). Anyway, I've been on the phone a bunch with people about the project-- thank you guys!
I did speak to Earthstar and for new eqpt (I wrote it down to post, but from memory):
6KW motor = 40 HP (so more than the 34 native to the AceTrike)
105 lbs (45 lbs of which is battery (5 gallons gas = 30.5 lbs)- the rest motor, controllers, wiring, etc. $8K.
$8K for electric + $13K (minus the motor cost) = ~$20K trike. A bit steep for a commercial project, but some might be enticed. I'm so stuck on the idea, I'd like to do it as a one off, but I'm quite sure we can source components that will make it more in reach for others-- that's what I'd like to do. Please post more ideas, etc, and let's continue to work this thing out on paper.
Interesting thing on electric is that the "fuel" does not need to be near the CG so that as you go from +30lbs to 2lbs of gas the CG won't change much. The fuel will weigh the same. So, you can use the batteries more like ballast and place them at a position that gives optimum balance to the weight of the engine.
I think he said only 30 minutes of flight (but that would be at full throttle (40HP)-- at less throttle, more time.
However, for a soaring trike, the goal is not pedal to the metal XC for hours-- The goal is to lift the trike to soaring altitude several times (minimum 3 times- I'd say-- 2 for fun, and one for an emergency low save). By my very rough calculations then- if the Acetrike with 34 HP climbs at 1K FPM, then it would take 3 minutes to gain 3K AGL-- a good soaring height. Therefore, with 30min of battery power, you could climb 10x on that power. Therefore there's room to lighten the system Earthstar uses and reduce the cost as well.