YFT, the photo is labelled "Looking Good". Just to help me understand, it appears the cross wind is coming from the pilot's right. Based on what Anne said about you teaching pilots to land with the leeward (downwind) rear wheel first, is this pilot purposefully inducing left roll to get that leeward wheel to touch first?
I guess I always land in a crosswind with the leeward wheel rotated back and touching first, but how does that cause the nose to yaw into the wind, It seems to me it would drag the wheel further back, rotating the trike the other way. What am I missing?
The trick seems to be to keep the short final low, (disconcerting, as there is no runway beneath the wheels, as we're tracking in between 45 and 90 degrees to the runway into the crosswind). The turn must be begun early to allow for the shallow arc of the turn to coincide with a lineup at the centre of the runway, at which time, despite the wing seemingly being exposed high side to the wind, the downwind side wheel plops down gently followed by the upwind side. The lack of jolt and sideways inertia is always a surprise. YFT teaches it beautifully.
Hi Jeff, I dont know if I understand well. When you landed in a crosswind and when you touched down by leeward wheel (as this picture up - left wheel) then your nose rotating to the other way - left. And on runway you have a little jumps(?) left-right until you stabilished your trike. It is right?
In my opinium, you landed with small speed. The most of fairing trikes are sensitive to side wind, then nose turnig into the wind especially on a small speed. I teaching my students always landed with engine idling. Always their landings are as an emergensy training - he must to estimate his high level (or to see the instruments) he must to estimate runway before... If his cruising speed is 80km/h then his decreasing flight into the runway he must have 90km/h without engine - idling. If is crosswind there his landing speed must be about 100km/h because he mustnt loss the speed by the wind gusts near the ground. Yes its harder to his hands :) but he is the pilot and he must control his plane for all time. When is he near the ground he mustnt break any wheel and his front wheel must turned to direction where he can go on runway. But not too much!!! Is better if he made a little arc. With s little higher speed he can control his flight by wing and 90% he can turned it into right way. Other 10% he must landed as YFT teaching. And if he mind it not well then he can to give full throttle and make it again.
@Jeff_Trike, I don't think someone meant to say landing the leeward rear wheel first rotates the nose into the wind, I think they meant it would rotate the nose in line with the runway.
OK, I'll be honest I don't land like this (rolling the trike at the last minute to line up with the runway). Certainly seems to work and seems to be a more finessed approach, but doesn't it add unnecessary complication / danger?
Method 1) (not shown above) If the trike comes down at a crab angle to the Rwy and both rear wheels land while the nose is crabbed, the nose still rotates smoothly toward the direction of travel over the ground (ie the runway direction). I've never had a trike goose step which is, I guess the main risk of doing this. My trike has a very smooth rotation to rwy heading.
Method 2) In the above demonstrated technique, I was actually surprised that the photo was labelled "Looking good again" To my unknowledgeable eye, it looked like the pilot was in a bit of trouble with the upwind wing high into the cross wind. This technique will (after adverse yaw) put the leeward wheel down first-- cool. But, turning downwind happens very quickly, making this an even more exacting technique. If the turn, roll and yaw are not arrested immediately the nose could actually rotate past Rwy heading. It has to be just right to rotate the nose to the exact rwy heading. Too little and both rear wheels will have to drag the nose toward centerline. Too much and it's even worse. It's the Goldilox landing-- it has to be just right. So, I'm thinking good on you for being so perfect, better than me!!! But with all that mother nature is throwing at you, this way, then that, then lift, then sink, then etc, very random, there's already enough to be concentrating on-- any LESS than perfect and it's not really worth it (works out same as method 1), any OVER steer and it's much worse than method one. Plus you have the upwind wing lifted.
I want you to know I'm not knocking your skill at all. Amazing. I want to give this a try too. I'll admit I had never heard of it before (it seems a lot more like GA landings-- they get all nervous about them, one wing up, one wing down, throwing in rudder input at last second, etc. I also sent an email to my instructor (a very well known / respected pilot) to ask if he mentioned this to me and I just didn't hear it. (I did have 5 instructors total though, + my BFRs, can't remember hearing any of them mentioning this-- this could be a defect in my listening))
To me trike landing method 1 is pretty darn easy, why make it harder than it needs to be? Unless that extra finesse is just for fun / skill when it's a pure crosswind with no gust and no turbulence and long runway and plenty of fuel for a go around.
I just wanted to be honest and stick my neck out and learn some, because I admit I'm not quite understanding this technique. Definitely not saying anyone is wrong.
Ok stop trying to Work it out. When the fun police release me from Ballarat I will put it on a white board and post it. This take the guess work out of it
Hey, it's a good post, good stimulation of discussion. Cool stuff.
I'm seeing that maybe like you guys evolved marsupials and pouches and strange senses of humor, and we evolved grizzlies and rednecks it's a cool opportunity to bring both sides of the world (from the top/west to the bottom / east, Europe, etc) together to mix up the genetic data again and get away from some of our inbred ways of thinking. Expose ourselves to different ways of thinking (like that BRS country poll).
Based on some of photos YFTs been sending, some hands on genetic exchange research looks very intriguing.
Xc i was confused to. But i think what may be throwing us off here is the picture. Because of the lights you cant see the runwway and it looks like the runway is on his left wing so that if his left wheel touches it would drag first and align him with runway perfectly.this is probably one of my least understood subjects .and i hate when that goose step thingy happens on landing.lets look at this further
XC, your are right. When I said "land in a crosswind with the leeward wheel rotated back and touching first, but how does that cause the nose to yaw into the wind", I meant "cause the nose to yaw into the runway." The only reason I know the leeward wheel touches first is because I a pretty sure if the upwind wheel touched first, the trike could flip. I don't consciously put the leeward wheel down first either. The only conscious thing I do is set up a stabilized crab a few feet over the runway, cut power to idle, and ease the bar out and bleed off some airspeed before touching down. But if it is gusty, I don't bleed off as much and I let the nose come down on its own. I try not to pull the nose down. I think the wind gradient in the last 20 ft is doing something, but the more I think about it the more I get confused.
Excellent suggestion in light of the discussion the topic has generated. If Jeff were able to shoot some tri[pod video of his technique, I will do the same. I notice as I type we have a nice 80 degree building now, which will do nicely. YFT is under arrest in Ballarat for the next 2 days, however will look forward to his analysis on his return.
Holy crap its a joke i really thought yft was being sent up the river.shows how gullable i am .dam yft i was ready to get my passport and head to australia and sit in front of some jail protesting.or maybe do the guigly down under thing.but anyways id rally the troops and get you out.
Jeff hedgeview thats an awesome idea id like to see both methods Across the board were going to have some diferent ways if doing things For diferent climates and conditions.its important i think to have a nice feel for youre landings.in hang gliding i was a really good lander and launcher and i practiced it alot.my first trike instructor i always felt that my landings were beter than his(not to say that i didnt learn anything from him) my second instructor was a classic owens valley hang glider pilot and his methods were more directed to feel.he just made you comfortable on landing.so unless youre doing something inherintly dangerous its good to be comfortable with youre own style of cross windlandings. It would be great headgeview and jeff xc yft to have a video demonstration of the different approaches to crosswind there is allways an advantage to having multiple options. As you alk know cinditions are never quite the same Yft iam so glad youre not in jail.
Hi David, yes I have been sent down the river to lecture at a town called Ballarat. It's a cold hole of a place. I have found the fun police don't laugh much here. I have been released on a good behaviour bond and will be home later tonight. Ready for flying tomorrow.
Hey Jozinko, I think it's SO cool you will be going!!! That's going to add such a dimension! It's true, I consider you to be one of the best representative pilots from your country (and you have the trophies to prove it). YFT as well. I'm just one of the most talkative (or fast typing) trikers in this corner of the world. It will be an honor!
Jozinko is referring to the yet to be announced by YFT "MegaFauna 2014" Oz Nav (XC) flight, around the end of April. I'm pushing YFT to make this a REALLY big NAV flight-- we had even been considering circumnavigating the entire continent, but will have to make that wait for another time. Still, this is a great opportunity to go big with this worldwide contingent coming.
Hi guys, I called to my friend Jan Lacuch about Megafauna trip 5 min ago and he would be like go with me there. He was my best navigator when we are won our Championship. He can speaking English good and he knows English aeronautical radiophone phraseologie :) What do you think?
Hi jeff thatll be great one place id like to get some exstensive education on fro multiple sorces
Hey yft iam kinda looking at maybe making the trip down there if i can save enough moola.but bringing a trike down next to impossable.i could maybe get a jumpseat here and there or say be a benifit like a driver or run for fuel Just wouldnt want to burden the whole thing in anyway.not sure what the program intails.
Comments
YFT, the photo is labelled "Looking Good". Just to help me understand, it appears the cross wind is coming from the pilot's right. Based on what Anne said about you teaching pilots to land with the leeward (downwind) rear wheel first, is this pilot purposefully inducing left roll to get that leeward wheel to touch first?
Yes David, as Anne said, its better because in this cause left rear wheel decelerate and turn left your trike and you can to land "normaly"
I guess I always land in a crosswind with the leeward wheel rotated back and touching first, but how does that cause the nose to yaw into the wind, It seems to me it would drag the wheel further back, rotating the trike the other way. What am I missing?
The trick seems to be to keep the short final low, (disconcerting, as there is no runway beneath the wheels, as we're tracking in between 45 and 90 degrees to the runway into the crosswind). The turn must be begun early to allow for the shallow arc of the turn to coincide with a lineup at the centre of the runway, at which time, despite the wing seemingly being exposed high side to the wind, the downwind side wheel plops down gently followed by the upwind side. The lack of jolt and sideways inertia is always a surprise. YFT teaches it beautifully.
Hi Jeff, I dont know if I understand well. When you landed in a crosswind and when you touched down by leeward wheel (as this picture up - left wheel) then your nose rotating to the other way - left. And on runway you have a little jumps(?) left-right until you stabilished your trike. It is right?
In my opinium, you landed with small speed. The most of fairing trikes are sensitive to side wind, then nose turnig into the wind especially on a small speed. I teaching my students always landed with engine idling. Always their landings are as an emergensy training - he must to estimate his high level (or to see the instruments) he must to estimate runway before... If his cruising speed is 80km/h then his decreasing flight into the runway he must have 90km/h without engine - idling. If is crosswind there his landing speed must be about 100km/h because he mustnt loss the speed by the wind gusts near the ground. Yes its harder to his hands :) but he is the pilot and he must control his plane for all time. When is he near the ground he mustnt break any wheel and his front wheel must turned to direction where he can go on runway. But not too much!!! Is better if he made a little arc. With s little higher speed he can control his flight by wing and 90% he can turned it into right way. Other 10% he must landed as YFT teaching. And if he mind it not well then he can to give full throttle and make it again.
@Jeff_Trike, I don't think someone meant to say landing the leeward rear wheel first rotates the nose into the wind, I think they meant it would rotate the nose in line with the runway.
OK, I'll be honest I don't land like this (rolling the trike at the last minute to line up with the runway). Certainly seems to work and seems to be a more finessed approach, but doesn't it add unnecessary complication / danger?
Method 1) (not shown above) If the trike comes down at a crab angle to the Rwy and both rear wheels land while the nose is crabbed, the nose still rotates smoothly toward the direction of travel over the ground (ie the runway direction). I've never had a trike goose step which is, I guess the main risk of doing this. My trike has a very smooth rotation to rwy heading.
Method 2) In the above demonstrated technique, I was actually surprised that the photo was labelled "Looking good again" To my unknowledgeable eye, it looked like the pilot was in a bit of trouble with the upwind wing high into the cross wind. This technique will (after adverse yaw) put the leeward wheel down first-- cool. But, turning downwind happens very quickly, making this an even more exacting technique. If the turn, roll and yaw are not arrested immediately the nose could actually rotate past Rwy heading. It has to be just right to rotate the nose to the exact rwy heading. Too little and both rear wheels will have to drag the nose toward centerline. Too much and it's even worse. It's the Goldilox landing-- it has to be just right. So, I'm thinking good on you for being so perfect, better than me!!! But with all that mother nature is throwing at you, this way, then that, then lift, then sink, then etc, very random, there's already enough to be concentrating on-- any LESS than perfect and it's not really worth it (works out same as method 1), any OVER steer and it's much worse than method one. Plus you have the upwind wing lifted.
I want you to know I'm not knocking your skill at all. Amazing. I want to give this a try too. I'll admit I had never heard of it before (it seems a lot more like GA landings-- they get all nervous about them, one wing up, one wing down, throwing in rudder input at last second, etc. I also sent an email to my instructor (a very well known / respected pilot) to ask if he mentioned this to me and I just didn't hear it. (I did have 5 instructors total though, + my BFRs, can't remember hearing any of them mentioning this-- this could be a defect in my listening))
To me trike landing method 1 is pretty darn easy, why make it harder than it needs to be? Unless that extra finesse is just for fun / skill when it's a pure crosswind with no gust and no turbulence and long runway and plenty of fuel for a go around.
I just wanted to be honest and stick my neck out and learn some, because I admit I'm not quite understanding this technique. Definitely not saying anyone is wrong.
Ok stop trying to Work it out. When the fun police release me from Ballarat I will put it on a white board and post it. This take the guess work out of it
Hey, it's a good post, good stimulation of discussion. Cool stuff.
I'm seeing that maybe like you guys evolved marsupials and pouches and strange senses of humor, and we evolved grizzlies and rednecks it's a cool opportunity to bring both sides of the world (from the top/west to the bottom / east, Europe, etc) together to mix up the genetic data again and get away from some of our inbred ways of thinking. Expose ourselves to different ways of thinking (like that BRS country poll).
Based on some of photos YFTs been sending, some hands on genetic exchange research looks very intriguing.
Xc i was confused to. But i think what may be throwing us off here is the picture. Because of the lights you cant see the runwway and it looks like the runway is on his left wing so that if his left wheel touches it would drag first and align him with runway perfectly.this is probably one of my least understood subjects .and i hate when that goose step thingy happens on landing.lets look at this further
XC, your are right. When I said "land in a crosswind with the leeward wheel rotated back and touching first, but how does that cause the nose to yaw into the wind", I meant "cause the nose to yaw into the runway." The only reason I know the leeward wheel touches first is because I a pretty sure if the upwind wheel touched first, the trike could flip. I don't consciously put the leeward wheel down first either. The only conscious thing I do is set up a stabilized crab a few feet over the runway, cut power to idle, and ease the bar out and bleed off some airspeed before touching down. But if it is gusty, I don't bleed off as much and I let the nose come down on its own. I try not to pull the nose down. I think the wind gradient in the last 20 ft is doing something, but the more I think about it the more I get confused.
Sorry Jeff. I understand you now :)
Jeff how about a tri pod video of how to do this landing.you do great video and if iam reading post correctly yft is being held somewhere bummer.
Excellent suggestion in light of the discussion the topic has generated. If Jeff were able to shoot some tri[pod video of his technique, I will do the same. I notice as I type we have a nice 80 degree building now, which will do nicely. YFT is under arrest in Ballarat for the next 2 days, however will look forward to his analysis on his return.
Holy crap its a joke i really thought yft was being sent up the river.shows how gullable i am .dam yft i was ready to get my passport and head to australia and sit in front of some jail protesting.or maybe do the guigly down under thing.but anyways id rally the troops and get you out.
Jeff hedgeview thats an awesome idea id like to see both methods
Across the board were going to have some diferent ways if doing things
For diferent climates and conditions.its important i think to have a nice feel for youre landings.in hang gliding i was a really good lander and launcher and i practiced it alot.my first trike instructor i always felt that my landings were beter than his(not to say that i didnt learn anything from him) my second instructor was a classic owens valley hang glider pilot and his methods were more directed to feel.he just made you comfortable on landing.so unless youre doing something inherintly dangerous its good to be comfortable with youre own style of cross windlandings. It would be great headgeview and jeff xc yft to have a video demonstration of the different approaches to crosswind there is allways an advantage to having multiple options. As you alk know cinditions are never quite the same
Yft iam so glad youre not in jail.
Jozinko hear youre going to make the trip. Got to see if i can sgueeze the piggy bank.id love to meet you all?
Hi David, yes I have been sent down the river to lecture at a town called Ballarat. It's a cold hole of a place. I have found the fun police don't laugh much here. I have been released on a good behaviour bond and will be home later tonight. Ready for flying tomorrow.
Yes David, Im happy as a little flea... :) First time in my life I will be between the best pilots arround the world. I enjoy to meet you all!
Hey Jozinko, I think it's SO cool you will be going!!! That's going to add such a dimension! It's true, I consider you to be one of the best representative pilots from your country (and you have the trophies to prove it). YFT as well. I'm just one of the most talkative (or fast typing) trikers in this corner of the world. It will be an honor!
Jozinko is referring to the yet to be announced by YFT "MegaFauna 2014" Oz Nav (XC) flight, around the end of April. I'm pushing YFT to make this a REALLY big NAV flight-- we had even been considering circumnavigating the entire continent, but will have to make that wait for another time. Still, this is a great opportunity to go big with this worldwide contingent coming.
Hi guys, I called to my friend Jan Lacuch about Megafauna trip 5 min ago and he would be like go with me there. He was my best navigator when we are won our Championship. He can speaking English good and he knows English aeronautical radiophone phraseologie :) What do you think?
I'll work on collecting some cross wind landing video over the next month and put something together.
Hi jeff thatll be great one place id like to get some exstensive education on fro multiple sorces
Hey yft iam kinda looking at maybe making the trip down there if i can save enough moola.but bringing a trike down next to impossable.i could maybe get a jumpseat here and there or say be a benifit like a driver or run for fuel
Just wouldnt want to burden the whole thing in anyway.not sure what the program intails.