I would like to know what your aircraft manual says about spiral dives. All the aircraft in Australia tell you not to do a sprial dive. So why promote it!
Ahoj Jozinko, I am sorry but pilots and aircraft do not fall into spiral divers! It is a controlled maneuver that a pilot pushes the aircraft into. You would have to have a very poorly designed aircraft if it would just fall into a spiral dive.
I'm wading into this a little reluctantly, as sometimes the message I convey with my typing is a little different to what I'm really trying to say.
I fly a modern, low twist, topless wing. It is spirally unstable. If you apply roll when diving at high throttle settings and fail to coordinate the wing, it slips into the turn... which then, because the wing is swept, yaws hard into the turn... which because of the roll-yaw coupling of a trike wing causes an increase in roll... which in turn increases the slip... and the unless the pilot takes very rapid action, the wing will roll inverted. THIS is a genuine 'graveyard spiral' where slip induces roll which induces yaw which induces slip which induces more roll etc. The configuration of this particular wing is such that the wing can get into an uncommanded, high speed, inverted situation.
The 'spiral dive' in Henry's video is something else altogether. You can see that the pilot commands an increase in roll after pitching way out and the wing begins slipping and so, in essence, the wing is doing exactly as it has been told. this is exactly the situation that produces a stall-spin in 3 axis aircraft, but most trikes including the one in this situation have a much more benign response. I'm not belittling the situation at all - the pilot was clearly unaware of what was going on, and Henry is to be commended for his actions which saved the day. I also find it wonderful that the pilot was so free in allowing us to discuss what happened. I would like to point out though that there is a world of difference between a slip in a spirally stable trike and one that is spirally unstable.
My own experience taught me that when flying 'advanced maneuvers' I should have the hand throttle set at idle and fly using the foot throttle. I think any time that a fast, low twist wing is flying at low angles of attack (fast), having the ability to drop the throttle to idle without letting go of the bar may be crucial.
I also feel compelled to point out that there are SOME wings, though hopefully very few, that TIGHTEN in a spiral if the pilot pulls in! I believe the Pegasus Raven is one example; there are others. In these wings you must not pull in during the recovery - completely opposite to waht is usually taught.
It's easy enough to determine the spiral characteristics of a wing without risk. I absolutely agree with YFTs comments that a spiral dive on most trikes is a state that the pilot must deliberately induce. Unfortunately there are some very poor wings still flying, and there are some pilots who unknowingly fly in way that puts them at risk, such as the video referred to above. Again, no slur is intended and a big thanks to the pilot involved.
Personally I'm in favour of teaching pilots to genuinely fly their aircraft through any realistic maneuver, so long as the instructor is truly aware of what exactly they are teaching - labelling a steady-state, slipping turn as a 'spiral dive' is a misnomer. If you're flying a wing that can be put in a situation whereby the speed, roll, and yaw of the aircraft are increasing, then you're dealing with a situation that takes active piloting to recover. That to me seems worth knowing.
I am a low hours relatively inexperienced trike pilot and I have been following this thread of conversation regarding the training of pilots in spiral dive recover with interest. I have been reluctant to enter the conversation and happy to defer to the experts that frequent this site. In the back of my mind there seems to have been alot of emphasis on the requirement for training as if it is inevitable that every pilot will end up in a spiral dive at some point. I also feel there is only limited discussion on how to avoid getting into this situation in the first place. ie no steep turns at low altitude, maintaining visual contact with the horizon when carrying out medium to steep turns, good speed and altitude management throughout turns.....you all know these basics I am sure. I commend Tussock on his succinct summary and perspective on this issue. I think his comments and observations add an extra dimension to the discussion. Congratulations Tussock, I think your message was very clear, concise and informative. May the conversation continue. It is a great help to us relative new pilots.
Hi Tussock, Thank you for your comments. I for one will not be making anymore comments on this matter. I have over 14000 hours on Trikes and I have over 29000 of total flying time in Jets and Helicopters, I also started the first hang gliding club in Australia. I am very use to Up Set Recovery I have been a CFI for a very long time, and I have seen my fair share of accidents. I have flown almost all the types available from about the mid 1980's. When I get a new type of Trike I will fly it for about 10 to 15 hours, and put it through almost all the attitudes I can think of. I do this because I do not want to be learning how to get an aircraft out of a bad situation with a student in the front seat, and learning about at the same time as the student is. I am an ex-military pilot and proud of it. I also try not to get involved in these type of discussions, but you know how it is, if you read and see to much on a subject, you just make a comment and you probably shouldn't.
Yft. Its just a meer flesh wound,just a scratch man,come back and fight like a man you chicken, off with hes heaed
What would monty say.
Seriously mate I truly respect your opinion and understand your exsperience. I believe that i have somewhat supported you in that i think that the best course of action is to have a well ingrained knowledge as a begginner and intermediate pilot of how not to get into a spiral, or for that matter any dangerous manuvers exspecialy at low agl. I think its one thing to have the knowlege as what you should do to get out of a spiral dive in theory but to practice it and add it to the spe is opening a new can of worms.I am more inclined to think that staying within the manufacturers placard limitations is a good thing. My friend henry did not practice spiral dive recovery but did have the knowlege of how to recover. What is missed here in all the blog chatter is how distracted they were with dolphins pryor to inducing a stalled right wing.I believe most accidents evolve from poor instruction or deviation from instruction. If we fly trikes as they were designed and not like f-16S The accident rate would drop.
As far as jozinko goes. I think were seeing his language barrier here peter.i dont think he means just fall into spiral.he is just short of discriptive words.
Now as tusocks has mentioned there are wings out there where spiral dive recovery is different and i also added this into my imput with trike cfi.this will also open a new can of worms. Now i know how you dont like to drag stuff out so i will zip it.tie the toungola, adiosa my mouthola and as you already know peter i have the unpecable gift of gab.
One problem iam having with you mates down there is before i came down there i knew you all by avatar names. So then i came down and got to know you all personally which still just warms my soul. But now i cant remember whos who by avitar names. Is tusocks that handsome mate who hangs out in front of your hanger in shorts saying oh its a great daye for flying mate and the skys all cleeer and the weether looks guood .who is an incrdible hang glider pilot. Name please?
All in a goooed daye my friend peter i still remember you mates from my shipping logs and phone calls to austrailia when i worked for electra flyer. 1980
hey tussock yft et al, it's a privilege to read your input in this discussion re 'spiral dives'. i hope you rescind your decision to not post again. we have much to learn from your experience, and expertese. (flagrant ass-kissing!). i became a trike-driver in 1993, and have 'opperated' them ever since. i hesitate to call myself a 'pilot' of these devices 'cos i just take off, waddle around, land and put it away. i have no interest in provoking 'extreme' attitudes , ie, steeeeeep turns, etc. untill i started reading of 'spiral dives' i had no idea 'they' existed'. nor how to 'fix'them. yeah, i realise it's possible to get into one 'by accident' or by 'outside influence', but wasn't taught how, why, and what to do. i did fly fixed wing flying things for 5 years before switching to 'floppy wing things' but i had been RIGEROUSLY instructed NOT to tighten up a low altitude turn by 'yanking and banking' lest the 'spin goddess' strike thee'! the 'self coordinating' (largely ) nature of trikes , no rudder to 'hit' on, tended to soothe most worries of 'departure, and base to final f..ck-ups, i've probably been slipping an sliding all over! as an old (80 plus) dog i 'ain't averse to larning new (to me ) tricks, so please keep the discussions going till theres nutting left to disscuss! and we're all asleep or 'sprouting daisies' monty ps. my OLD suzuki ' how to ride the motorcycle' manual warned to 'go soothingly through the mud- puddle, for there-in lurks the skid-demon!
I agree 100% with your comments, especially on Henry's incident.
But I have to ask, "Do you like the way your unstable wing flies?" I personally would not. I am surprised that a manufacture would sell an unstable trike/wing combination. Or is this a nostandard experimental setup.
I posted the following on trikepilot.com, and repeat it here
One thing missing from all this discussion is spiral dives are too much fun. Watching the altimeter unwind at 1500 ft/min is a thrill. It is an aerobatic type maneuver for those of us who avoid aerobatics. If you need to loose altitude in a hurry, a stable, steeply banked spiral dive is great, but lets face it they are a lot of fun without the fear. If you are burning off 7000 ft of altitude, the spiral dive lasts many minutes, more that enough time for the the adrenaline surge and euphoria alter your mental state. A cycle of brinkmanship in your own mind starts. Can I bank it steeper, can a get airspeed higher, can I go around one more time before leveling out? Guard against this, especially in that last 1000 ft of altitude above the ground.
hey jeff, i watched a vietnam chopper pilot spirol into the ground in an attempt to self instruct in a 'slow flying ultralight. we observers were mesmerized by his performance, even when his 'inside wing' gently touched the grass he continued to rotate, the wing got shorter as it slowly buckled his curcuits got tighter, and quicker until he stopped! we watched as he got out of what was left, threw his helmet on the ground cursed mightily about 'reverting to chopper instincts' and stormed off in a 'huff'. HONEST! monty
Jeff ill make this short as much as i know about you ,you are an exstremly advanced trike pilot.the real thought here is do we want newbies practicing this manuver for the test with a flight examiner.tusocks if iam correct is a world class compitition hang glider pilot. I spent three weeks in oz with him and what an incredable knowlegable and decent human to be around. Couldnt agree with you more about unstable wings
Hell yft with you exsperiece id fly upside down with you man.
Hey wait i did fly upside down with you. At least thats how it looked from up here.
Jeff would be a good candidate for your formation fridays and he has a strong stumuck from eating all that good hatch hot green chiles and jalepenos in new mexico.
I have no problem with pilots who fly somewhat out of the envelope. Yft does it with formation flying. Jeff does it with liking to spiral to lose altitude. And you all have the exsperiece and know the risks. You have to take some risks to really live. The difference is dooing it well. Seeing pilots doing it not well is not enjoyable. By the way peter i loved every minute of formation flying with you and hedge. The memory of flying with hedgeview circling down on a bunch of roos and goats and climbing back thru that hugh groudbreaking thermal while keeping my eyes peeled for thous single stand wires with poles hiding in gum trees and the warm eucoliptus air miles and miles from no where. I understand why you dont want to comment into the fear of negativity peter but i do agree with monty.yours as well of jeffs input is well needed.without you we only have
Thanks, guys. I have travelled a bit in Oz and US for freestyle and XC hang gliding comps and had a couple of hang gliding manufacturing and instructing businesses, but I don't know if I've met anyone from here - I don't think I'm who you think I am, White Eagle. I'm a Kiwi, name is Bryan, and being Kiwi I am therefore genetically programmed to tease Australians. I'd love to meet you all.
The danger of the written word is that messages can get scrambled, and I think this should be my last post on this topic too. I understand YFTs reticence to get drawn into this and feel the same, but it think everyone is more or less on the same page. My views are:
1. As White Eagle says, the pilot in Henry's video just had is eye off the ball for a while, and in the yakking, pointing, and looking around he just missed the fact that he was pushing out and banking. When his attention came back to flying, he was unaware of what had happened and needed a bit more time than that available to get himself sorted. A bit like spotting naked Swedish volleyball players running towards you holding proof that their fathers all own breweries while you're driving home - you get distracted, and drive into a letterbox.
2. Any time that you've got bank on, your wing may try to yaw, change speed, or slip. Your roll as a pilot is to coordinate things to get the result you want. That's pilotage. If you've got something happening that you didn't intend and you feel that things are slipping from your grasp, your overarching goal is to ROLL THE WINGS LEVEL. Hopefully this much is intrinsic.
3. On any decent wing you can get greater roll authority by PULLING THE BAR IN FIRST, which increases airflow over the wings and lowers the angle of attack the wing tips. So far, so good.
4. The one key step which becomes really critical when things are spiralling out of control (bad pun!) and may not be intrinsic, and is imperative on my wing in a runaway spiral, is GETTING THE THROTTLE TO IDLE. My wing will go from 10 degrees of bank to inverted in a few seconds, with an uncommanded roll that cannot be stopped by the pilot unless the throttle is closed.
The above steps (throttle off, pitch down and roll level) work on the vast majority of wings - all but a few dogs - in any situation that the pilot is losing control, including graveyard spirals, with the sole exception of being pitched up and on the verge of a tumble (another story). This much is so universal that I think it's worth teaching, even if spiral dives per se are not. I think there's a danger in describing incidents such as that in Henry's video as a spiral, as it gives the impression that trikes have some terrible habit of getting themselves locked into a critical situation which require great skills in order to overcome. Apart from a few dreadful designs, that's not the case.
As Jeff says, controlled spiralling descents are fun. They take a bit of awareness (I get 2000 fpm descent rates and over 100 knots in a couple of rotations), but they can also be useful. A quarter turn down low is a great way of getting a slow wing down to the deck through turbulence and shear if it's done correctly.
...and since the question has been asked... and I need to choose my words carefully here... a generous manufacturer was particularly keen on getting me onto their wing, which straight from the box does have a characteristic that is undesirable. I think it unlikely that most pilots would find themselves in a position whereby that characteristic came to light. I've modified the wing a little to get higher speeds from it, and the cost has been a slightly increased tendency to tip stall in turbulence and an increase in care required in high speed/high throttle/fast roll situations.
Gak. I feel like I've hijacked the post, and will butt out now. Cheers all.
Yup i get avitar names confussed tussock but did friend you when you started alltrikes. Kiwi is a great place to be i do recall that the only thing aussie seem like discussing much is whos got the best beer queensland or victoria. Hows kiwi beer fit in that picture.anyways thank you for your imput .
SDR... Safe Design Results. or are we thinking Spiral Dive Recovery.?!..
The story about SDR, has created many conversations of opinion - since a few months prior 1st April 2015 Henry Trikelife + front seat PIC presenting us with an image of their world, flying for fun.. suddenly a life threatening situation in a trike changes everything in a moment.!
In appreciation, consideration and evaluation of posts on SDR.. my resolve identifies one significant factor.
What Compliance Certficate represented the integrity of aircraft design configuration in the video.?
Is the aircraft Design Certificated under NAA, DGAC, BCAR S, DULV, USA LSA, Aust AD32-1 or other..?
Puzzled.. no one dead, video to the world, but no comment on not ONE fact of the truth. Design Certificated.
If we are to fly safely in any aircraft, the machine must be compliant.
As for Placard Limitations, Flight Envelopes, Pilot Training and so forth. The bottom line is that SDR is a controlled maneuver and should not occur during normal flight environments.
If you got this far.. my humble opinion on SDR with flexwing experience since 1974, flying kites, Moyes gliders manufacturing Airborne, selling Cosmos, Pegasus, Mainair, Aeros, DTA, Cyclone and Air Creation the answer is very simple. The aircraft type was unknown, therefore no REAL Flight Envelope Placard.
In this situation, what was the aircraft's capabilities, limitations and operational limits to fly safely..?
Flexwing Stability Science has evolved. Today, few trike wing manufacturers offer an aircarft tested above flight envelope placard limitations. A true Philosophy in Flight Stability is possible without instability.
Decades of kiting, hang gliding & triking history, dictate where we are today on SDR.
Spiral Dive recovery is far removed from Safe Design Results... or is your aircraft inherently unstable.?!
Hi guys, yea, my language barrier is still too big. A lot of slang words (thanks WE) cant translator to know neither :)
YFT is absolutely right. Every trikes are flying with autostable mode (except Apollo wings - I hate them, they are dangerous! Old 17m wings was beautiful! Newest bad copies of best world manufacturers are terrible) and if you fly, if you are thinking at the same time, you never do spiral. You never have to do spiral. When you fly into flight envenlope.
But controlled spiral is normal flying mode, we are teaching it at basic pilot course. I mean this one YFT, you sure remember my 1st flight with you, when I asked you, if we can fly down to say hallo to people in boats and water scooters on lake Mulwalla. I did controlled spiral to decreasing our flight level. This was normal wanted flying mode.
Sometime pilot were got unwanted wind or thermal bump and wing is in nonflying mode. Like XC Triker and me got thermal in OZ, one wing side goes up and we lost our speed to value 35mph. We both were hanging on control bar and we both screamed. It was veeeery dangerous.
Hats off before your flying experiences YFT, but still Im thinking, everyone pilot would like to know, how is the way from spiral dive out. I always teach to students, how to know where is the limit - low speed and how is wing tell him - ups, you are very close this limit! This is 90% of training these "dangerous maneuvers". Next step is, when I put wing into spiral dive and a student have to recover it. I want to show them, they have to pull the bar, not push!
This students rules we began after 2002. Because during one year before, happened 3 accidents, all during turbulence and turning they lost of speed and fell to spiral. Then since 2003 each instructor in Flying Amateur Assotiation of Slovak Republic, teaching these maneuvers.
I never teach studens to fly dangerous! No one instructor teach his students fly dangerous.
I want to thank everyone for their thoughts, perspectives and opinions. If any one does not know who trikeCFI is it is Paul Hamilton and I am listening.
YFT and anyone..... Please do not misunderstand my objectives here.... I thought I made it clear at
I am NOT promoting everyone to do spiral dives (although I agree with Jeff's perspective they are fun), I am trying to figure out what to do to avoid deaths and help every trike pilot avoid spiraling into the ground. Plain and simple.
My posts here are simply trying to gain information to decide what and how to do to provide my recommendation to the FAA here in the US.
The big decision is: drum roll ------- should it be verbal or an actual flight task. I have my opinions but as I have done with any of my previous recommendations to the FAA here in the US is get as much information as possible.
Flying flex wings/hang gliders for over 40 years powered and non powered. In my young and stupid days aerobatics. I provided input as an industry expert to the original US standards for training, the Practical Test Standards (PTS). I wrote the book the US uses for training pilots as well as wrote more books/DVD specifically for trike pilots and developed a complete training system for trikes. Bla Bla Bla. see http://pilot-stores.com/trike-pilot/ for verification if you want. I am not new to this but always try to get everyone's opinion and views before I make my recommendation on this important matter. Again I appreciate everyone's expert and non expert opinions and experience and I hope you understand my motive/objective.
Comments
I would like to know what your aircraft manual says about spiral dives. All the aircraft in Australia tell you not to do a sprial dive. So why promote it!
Hi YFT. We dont promote it. In my opinoin it is good to know only, what can pilot to do if he fell into spiral.
Ahoj Jozinko, I am sorry but pilots and aircraft do not fall into spiral divers! It is a controlled maneuver that a pilot pushes the aircraft into. You would have to have a very poorly designed aircraft if it would just fall into a spiral dive.
I'm wading into this a little reluctantly, as sometimes the message I convey with my typing is a little different to what I'm really trying to say.
I fly a modern, low twist, topless wing. It is spirally unstable. If you apply roll when diving at high throttle settings and fail to coordinate the wing, it slips into the turn... which then, because the wing is swept, yaws hard into the turn... which because of the roll-yaw coupling of a trike wing causes an increase in roll... which in turn increases the slip... and the unless the pilot takes very rapid action, the wing will roll inverted. THIS is a genuine 'graveyard spiral' where slip induces roll which induces yaw which induces slip which induces more roll etc. The configuration of this particular wing is such that the wing can get into an uncommanded, high speed, inverted situation.
The 'spiral dive' in Henry's video is something else altogether. You can see that the pilot commands an increase in roll after pitching way out and the wing begins slipping and so, in essence, the wing is doing exactly as it has been told. this is exactly the situation that produces a stall-spin in 3 axis aircraft, but most trikes including the one in this situation have a much more benign response. I'm not belittling the situation at all - the pilot was clearly unaware of what was going on, and Henry is to be commended for his actions which saved the day. I also find it wonderful that the pilot was so free in allowing us to discuss what happened. I would like to point out though that there is a world of difference between a slip in a spirally stable trike and one that is spirally unstable.
My own experience taught me that when flying 'advanced maneuvers' I should have the hand throttle set at idle and fly using the foot throttle. I think any time that a fast, low twist wing is flying at low angles of attack (fast), having the ability to drop the throttle to idle without letting go of the bar may be crucial.
I also feel compelled to point out that there are SOME wings, though hopefully very few, that TIGHTEN in a spiral if the pilot pulls in! I believe the Pegasus Raven is one example; there are others. In these wings you must not pull in during the recovery - completely opposite to waht is usually taught.
It's easy enough to determine the spiral characteristics of a wing without risk. I absolutely agree with YFTs comments that a spiral dive on most trikes is a state that the pilot must deliberately induce. Unfortunately there are some very poor wings still flying, and there are some pilots who unknowingly fly in way that puts them at risk, such as the video referred to above. Again, no slur is intended and a big thanks to the pilot involved.
Personally I'm in favour of teaching pilots to genuinely fly their aircraft through any realistic maneuver, so long as the instructor is truly aware of what exactly they are teaching - labelling a steady-state, slipping turn as a 'spiral dive' is a misnomer. If you're flying a wing that can be put in a situation whereby the speed, roll, and yaw of the aircraft are increasing, then you're dealing with a situation that takes active piloting to recover. That to me seems worth knowing.
I am a low hours relatively inexperienced trike pilot and I have been following this thread of conversation regarding the training of pilots in spiral dive recover with interest. I have been reluctant to enter the conversation and happy to defer to the experts that frequent this site.
In the back of my mind there seems to have been alot of emphasis on the requirement for training as if it is inevitable that every pilot will end up in a spiral dive at some point. I also feel there is only limited discussion on how to avoid getting into this situation in the first place. ie no steep turns at low altitude, maintaining visual contact with the horizon when carrying out medium to steep turns, good speed and altitude management throughout turns.....you all know these basics I am sure.
I commend Tussock on his succinct summary and perspective on this issue. I think his comments and observations add an extra dimension to the discussion.
Congratulations Tussock, I think your message was very clear, concise and informative. May the conversation continue. It is a great help to us relative new pilots.
Hi Tussock, Thank you for your comments. I for one will not be making anymore comments on this matter. I have over 14000 hours on Trikes and I have over 29000 of total flying time in Jets and Helicopters, I also started the first hang gliding club in Australia. I am very use to Up Set Recovery I have been a CFI for a very long time, and I have seen my fair share of accidents. I have flown almost all the types available from about the mid 1980's. When I get a new type of Trike I will fly it for about 10 to 15 hours, and put it through almost all the attitudes I can think of. I do this because I do not want to be learning how to get an aircraft out of a bad situation with a student in the front seat, and learning about at the same time as the student is. I am an ex-military pilot and proud of it. I also try not to get involved in these type of discussions, but you know how it is, if you read and see to much on a subject, you just make a comment and you probably shouldn't.
All the best YFT
Yft. Its just a meer flesh wound,just a scratch man,come back and fight like a man you chicken, off with hes heaed
What would monty say.
Seriously mate I truly respect your opinion and understand your exsperience. I believe that i have somewhat supported you in that i think that the best course of action is to have a well ingrained knowledge as a begginner and intermediate pilot of how not to get into a spiral, or for that matter any dangerous manuvers exspecialy at low agl. I think its one thing to have the knowlege as what you should do to get out of a spiral dive in theory but to practice it and add it to the spe is opening a new can of worms.I am more inclined to think that staying within the manufacturers placard limitations is a good thing. My friend henry did not practice spiral dive recovery but did have the knowlege of how to recover. What is missed here in all the blog chatter is how distracted they were with dolphins pryor to inducing a stalled right wing.I believe most accidents evolve from poor instruction or deviation from instruction. If we fly trikes as they were designed and not like f-16S The accident rate would drop.
As far as jozinko goes. I think were seeing his language barrier here peter.i dont think he means just fall into spiral.he is just short of discriptive words.
Now as tusocks has mentioned there are wings out there where spiral dive recovery is different and i also added this into my imput with trike cfi.this will also open a new can of worms. Now i know how you dont like to drag stuff out so i will zip it.tie the toungola, adiosa my mouthola and as you already know peter i have the unpecable gift of gab.
One problem iam having with you mates down there is before i came down there i knew you all by avatar names. So then i came down and got to know you all personally which still just warms my soul. But now i cant remember whos who by avitar names. Is tusocks that handsome mate who hangs out in front of your hanger in shorts saying oh its a great daye for flying mate and the skys all cleeer and the weether looks guood .who is an incrdible hang glider pilot. Name please?
All in a goooed daye my friend peter i still remember you mates from my shipping logs and phone calls to austrailia when i worked for electra flyer. 1980
hey tussock yft et al, it's a privilege to read your input in this discussion re 'spiral dives'. i hope you rescind your decision to not post again. we have much to learn from your experience, and expertese. (flagrant ass-kissing!). i became a trike-driver in 1993, and have 'opperated' them ever since. i hesitate to call myself a 'pilot' of these devices 'cos i just take off, waddle around, land and put it away. i have no interest in provoking 'extreme' attitudes , ie, steeeeeep turns, etc. untill i started reading of 'spiral dives' i had no idea 'they' existed'. nor how to 'fix'them. yeah, i realise it's possible to get into one 'by accident' or by 'outside influence', but wasn't taught how, why, and what to do. i did fly fixed wing flying things for 5 years before switching to 'floppy wing things' but i had been RIGEROUSLY instructed NOT to tighten up a low altitude turn by 'yanking and banking' lest the 'spin goddess' strike thee'! the 'self coordinating' (largely ) nature of trikes , no rudder to 'hit' on, tended to soothe most worries of 'departure, and base to final f..ck-ups, i've probably been slipping an sliding all over! as an old (80 plus) dog i 'ain't averse to larning new (to me ) tricks, so please keep the discussions going till theres nutting left to disscuss! and we're all asleep or 'sprouting daisies' monty ps. my OLD suzuki ' how to ride the motorcycle' manual warned to 'go soothingly through the mud- puddle, for there-in lurks the skid-demon!
Tussock,
I agree 100% with your comments, especially on Henry's incident.
But I have to ask, "Do you like the way your unstable wing flies?" I personally would not. I am surprised that a manufacture would sell an unstable trike/wing combination. Or is this a nostandard experimental setup.
I posted the following on trikepilot.com, and repeat it here
One thing missing from all this discussion is spiral dives are too much fun. Watching the altimeter unwind at 1500 ft/min is a thrill. It is an aerobatic type maneuver for those of us who avoid aerobatics. If you need to loose altitude in a hurry, a stable, steeply banked spiral dive is great, but lets face it they are a lot of fun without the fear. If you are burning off 7000 ft of altitude, the spiral dive lasts many minutes, more that enough time for the the adrenaline surge and euphoria alter your mental state. A cycle of brinkmanship in your own mind starts. Can I bank it steeper, can a get airspeed higher, can I go around one more time before leveling out? Guard against this, especially in that last 1000 ft of altitude above the ground.
Jeff
hey jeff, i watched a vietnam chopper pilot spirol into the ground in an attempt to self instruct in a 'slow flying ultralight. we observers were mesmerized by his performance, even when his 'inside wing' gently touched the grass he continued to rotate, the wing got shorter as it slowly buckled his curcuits got tighter, and quicker until he stopped! we watched as he got out of what was left, threw his helmet on the ground cursed mightily about 'reverting to chopper instincts' and stormed off in a 'huff'. HONEST! monty
Jeff ill make this short as much as i know about you ,you are an exstremly advanced trike pilot.the real thought here is do we want newbies practicing this manuver for the test with a flight examiner.tusocks if iam correct is a world class compitition hang glider pilot. I spent three weeks in oz with him and what an incredable knowlegable and decent human to be around. Couldnt agree with you more about unstable wings
Hell yft with you exsperiece id fly upside down with you man.
Hey wait i did fly upside down with you. At least thats how it looked from up here.
Jeff would be a good candidate for your formation fridays and he has a strong stumuck from eating all that good hatch hot green chiles and jalepenos in new mexico.
I have no problem with pilots who fly somewhat out of the envelope. Yft does it with formation flying. Jeff does it with liking to spiral to lose altitude. And you all have the exsperiece and know the risks. You have to take some risks to really live. The difference is dooing it well. Seeing pilots doing it not well is not enjoyable. By the way peter i loved every minute of formation flying with you and hedge. The memory of flying with hedgeview circling down on a bunch of roos and goats and climbing back thru that hugh groudbreaking thermal while keeping my eyes peeled for thous single stand wires with poles hiding in gum trees and the warm eucoliptus air miles and miles from no where. I understand why you dont want to comment into the fear of negativity peter but i do agree with monty.yours as well of jeffs input is well needed.without you we only have
Thanks, guys. I have travelled a bit in Oz and US for freestyle and XC hang gliding comps and had a couple of hang gliding manufacturing and instructing businesses, but I don't know if I've met anyone from here - I don't think I'm who you think I am, White Eagle. I'm a Kiwi, name is Bryan, and being Kiwi I am therefore genetically programmed to tease Australians. I'd love to meet you all.
The danger of the written word is that messages can get scrambled, and I think this should be my last post on this topic too. I understand YFTs reticence to get drawn into this and feel the same, but it think everyone is more or less on the same page. My views are:
1. As White Eagle says, the pilot in Henry's video just had is eye off the ball for a while, and in the yakking, pointing, and looking around he just missed the fact that he was pushing out and banking. When his attention came back to flying, he was unaware of what had happened and needed a bit more time than that available to get himself sorted. A bit like spotting naked Swedish volleyball players running towards you holding proof that their fathers all own breweries while you're driving home - you get distracted, and drive into a letterbox.
2. Any time that you've got bank on, your wing may try to yaw, change speed, or slip. Your roll as a pilot is to coordinate things to get the result you want. That's pilotage. If you've got something happening that you didn't intend and you feel that things are slipping from your grasp, your overarching goal is to ROLL THE WINGS LEVEL. Hopefully this much is intrinsic.
3. On any decent wing you can get greater roll authority by PULLING THE BAR IN FIRST, which increases airflow over the wings and lowers the angle of attack the wing tips. So far, so good.
4. The one key step which becomes really critical when things are spiralling out of control (bad pun!) and may not be intrinsic, and is imperative on my wing in a runaway spiral, is GETTING THE THROTTLE TO IDLE. My wing will go from 10 degrees of bank to inverted in a few seconds, with an uncommanded roll that cannot be stopped by the pilot unless the throttle is closed.
The above steps (throttle off, pitch down and roll level) work on the vast majority of wings - all but a few dogs - in any situation that the pilot is losing control, including graveyard spirals, with the sole exception of being pitched up and on the verge of a tumble (another story). This much is so universal that I think it's worth teaching, even if spiral dives per se are not. I think there's a danger in describing incidents such as that in Henry's video as a spiral, as it gives the impression that trikes have some terrible habit of getting themselves locked into a critical situation which require great skills in order to overcome. Apart from a few dreadful designs, that's not the case.
As Jeff says, controlled spiralling descents are fun. They take a bit of awareness (I get 2000 fpm descent rates and over 100 knots in a couple of rotations), but they can also be useful. A quarter turn down low is a great way of getting a slow wing down to the deck through turbulence and shear if it's done correctly.
...and since the question has been asked... and I need to choose my words carefully here... a generous manufacturer was particularly keen on getting me onto their wing, which straight from the box does have a characteristic that is undesirable. I think it unlikely that most pilots would find themselves in a position whereby that characteristic came to light. I've modified the wing a little to get higher speeds from it, and the cost has been a slightly increased tendency to tip stall in turbulence and an increase in care required in high speed/high throttle/fast roll situations.
Gak. I feel like I've hijacked the post, and will butt out now. Cheers all.
Yup i get avitar names confussed tussock but did friend you when you started alltrikes. Kiwi is a great place to be i do recall that the only thing aussie seem like discussing much is whos got the best beer queensland or victoria. Hows kiwi beer fit in that picture.anyways thank you for your imput .
SDR... Safe Design Results. or are we thinking Spiral Dive Recovery.?!..
The story about SDR, has created many conversations of opinion - since a few months prior 1st April 2015 Henry Trikelife + front seat PIC presenting us with an image of their world, flying for fun.. suddenly a life threatening situation in a trike changes everything in a moment.!
In appreciation, consideration and evaluation of posts on SDR.. my resolve identifies one significant factor.
What Compliance Certficate represented the integrity of aircraft design configuration in the video.?
Is the aircraft Design Certificated under NAA, DGAC, BCAR S, DULV, USA LSA, Aust AD32-1 or other..?
Puzzled.. no one dead, video to the world, but no comment on not ONE fact of the truth. Design Certificated.
If we are to fly safely in any aircraft, the machine must be compliant.
As for Placard Limitations, Flight Envelopes, Pilot Training and so forth. The bottom line is that SDR is a controlled maneuver and should not occur during normal flight environments.
If you got this far.. my humble opinion on SDR with flexwing experience since 1974, flying kites, Moyes gliders manufacturing Airborne, selling Cosmos, Pegasus, Mainair, Aeros, DTA, Cyclone and Air Creation the answer is very simple. The aircraft type was unknown, therefore no REAL Flight Envelope Placard.
In this situation, what was the aircraft's capabilities, limitations and operational limits to fly safely..?
Flexwing Stability Science has evolved. Today, few trike wing manufacturers offer an aircarft tested above flight envelope placard limitations. A true Philosophy in Flight Stability is possible without instability.
Decades of kiting, hang gliding & triking history, dictate where we are today on SDR. Spiral Dive recovery is far removed from Safe Design Results... or is your aircraft inherently unstable.?!
Hi guys, yea, my language barrier is still too big. A lot of slang words (thanks WE) cant translator to know neither :)
YFT is absolutely right. Every trikes are flying with autostable mode (except Apollo wings - I hate them, they are dangerous! Old 17m wings was beautiful! Newest bad copies of best world manufacturers are terrible) and if you fly, if you are thinking at the same time, you never do spiral. You never have to do spiral. When you fly into flight envenlope.
But controlled spiral is normal flying mode, we are teaching it at basic pilot course. I mean this one YFT, you sure remember my 1st flight with you, when I asked you, if we can fly down to say hallo to people in boats and water scooters on lake Mulwalla. I did controlled spiral to decreasing our flight level. This was normal wanted flying mode.
Sometime pilot were got unwanted wind or thermal bump and wing is in nonflying mode. Like XC Triker and me got thermal in OZ, one wing side goes up and we lost our speed to value 35mph. We both were hanging on control bar and we both screamed. It was veeeery dangerous.
Hats off before your flying experiences YFT, but still Im thinking, everyone pilot would like to know, how is the way from spiral dive out. I always teach to students, how to know where is the limit - low speed and how is wing tell him - ups, you are very close this limit! This is 90% of training these "dangerous maneuvers". Next step is, when I put wing into spiral dive and a student have to recover it. I want to show them, they have to pull the bar, not push!
This students rules we began after 2002. Because during one year before, happened 3 accidents, all during turbulence and turning they lost of speed and fell to spiral. Then since 2003 each instructor in Flying Amateur Assotiation of Slovak Republic, teaching these maneuvers.
I never teach studens to fly dangerous! No one instructor teach his students fly dangerous.
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- Jozinko@Sajan
TrikeCFIJozinko liked this
I want to thank everyone for their thoughts, perspectives and opinions. If any one does not know who trikeCFI is it is Paul Hamilton and I am listening.
YFT and anyone..... Please do not misunderstand my objectives here.... I thought I made it clear at
http://alltrikes.com/elgg/pages/view/89317/call-to-action-adding-spiral-recovery-tasks-to-the-practical-test-standards-pts
but apparently not.
I am NOT promoting everyone to do spiral dives (although I agree with Jeff's perspective they are fun), I am trying to figure out what to do to avoid deaths and help every trike pilot avoid spiraling into the ground. Plain and simple.
My posts here are simply trying to gain information to decide what and how to do to provide my recommendation to the FAA here in the US.
The big decision is: drum roll ------- should it be verbal or an actual flight task. I have my opinions but as I have done with any of my previous recommendations to the FAA here in the US is get as much information as possible.
Flying flex wings/hang gliders for over 40 years powered and non powered. In my young and stupid days aerobatics. I provided input as an industry expert to the original US standards for training, the Practical Test Standards (PTS). I wrote the book the US uses for training pilots as well as wrote more books/DVD specifically for trike pilots and developed a complete training system for trikes. Bla Bla Bla. see http://pilot-stores.com/trike-pilot/ for verification if you want. I am not new to this but always try to get everyone's opinion and views before I make my recommendation on this important matter. Again I appreciate everyone's expert and non expert opinions and experience and I hope you understand my motive/objective.