Ultralight or Part 103 trikes

Ultralight or Part 103 trikes

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Ultralight or Part 103 trikes

Ultralight or Part 103 trikes

group is for discussion of part 103 trikes or flying part 103 trikes

learning to thermal and ridge soar a soaring trike

Comments

  • XC Triker

    Where's the rest of the page / info ?   is this like "Page of Dreams" you build it and the info will come?  ;)

  • white eagle

    when i look at soaring trike videos they are usually flying smooth air . i would like more information by exsperienced soaring trike pilots on thermalling, ridge soaring, cloud streets and cross country potential.the differences of flying soaring trikes as oposed to hang gliders in rowdy

     

  • Sally Tucker aka Deafladyhawk

    I had experienced with thermalling on my trike, Skycycle with 25hp Zenoah engine.  Thermal was about 500 fps, used gas to go up faster to circle than hang glider.   

  • XC Triker

    Well, my experience is a little different and may not count toward what you're looking for ... I thermalled my Mosquito NRG powered HG harness (tiniest trike in the world).  I was nervous that the little 2-stroke engine wouldn't restart after cooling down so I always kept it running (idle for thermalling).  It was a little different than a trike in that the hang point was a strap, so it was like the early trikes that @Cburg was talking about with a 3 axis hang connection and you could vector the thrust if you wanted.  But the power, and weight made it want to wrap into a turn ad you really had to high-side it a lot, especially in a thermal.  If you let your feet slip down inside the turn (vectored thrust) it was even more intense.  I didn't feel I could be as aggressive as with a pure HG-- standing it up on a wingtip and pushing out 'till just near stall-  but with the motor, you didn't have to either.  I preferred mellower conditions.  The HG also handled a LOT heavier with the extra weight / fuel.

    I've thermalled the Tanarg a bit as well.  Kinda similar feeling to Mosquito, definitely more cautious in the method-- only pushing about halfway out, etc and always prepared for the edge.  It will thermal though, and it can be useful, but can't thermal without significant motor thrust-- unless in a hellacious thermal.  The other day, I must've go into some wave lift or something-  because after not being able to gain altitude, I suddenly couldn't keep it down below 7K feet--  WEIRD air !!!  I didn't want to be in that strong of conditions to soar a Tanarg engine off and aborted the flight ...

    Ridge lift in both was pretty straight forward in either Mosquito or big trike (I used some early morning ridge lift to help the climb over Mt Whitney).  Just get in the lift band and slow down and let it help you-- no unusual tendencies noted.  However, I was not doing figure 8's on a smallish ridge-  no turns, just basically straight ahead-- I expect the turns would feel somewhat similar to thermalling above.

    I have not flown a "REAL" soaring trike-- and I expect it to be a better experience.  I was using my normal HG wing (Moyes Litesport 149) which was then relatively a little undersized for the Mosquito-- and similarly, the Tanarg, even on the 15M wings is a heavy trike to thermal.  I would think that something like a DragonFly light carriage with a wing specifically sized for it would be much better.  Also, the Mosquito with 2 full tanks was just too heavy to land on feet (did it ONCE !!!  funny video of my knees wobbling)-- and the wheels of the soaring trikes much better suited-- which makes landing less of a concern on your mind (though legs can sometimes land where wheels cannot).  Next if I had an electric trike, there would be basically no concern about the reliability of the engine restart and so turning off the motor, and having the prop feather would bring it that much closer to pure HG.  Trikes with reliable engines / starters would be the same.  The supine position is a bit different to soar from, but I don't think would be a big deal, especially now after so many hours in the seated position-  just a perception issue really, and  maybe a little less flexibility and speed of reaction- you can jerk your body around quicker and try and yaw / slide the HG around more-- and without the 3 axis hang point (like Mosquito) vectoring thrust wouldn't be an additional factor.

    That's all I know about thermal vs ridge soaring with a motor-  unfortunately it's only partially applicable, and maybe what I really wanted to say is I'm really looking forward to trying a purpose built light soaring trike.  Also, I think that I would generally choose lighter conditions for a soaring trike than HG--  I don't really like flying a trike period in strong thermic conditions--  but a HG both handles it better (like a surf board in surf, vs a little boat with an outboard motor), and the HG (without motor) requires better conditions (stronger natural motor) to have a good flight, so you look for stronger conditions--  With a soaring trike, why not fly on the more mellow days in fat smoother thermals if you have an engine backup ?

  • Jozinko

    Our instructor didnt like thermals and told us: Its dangerous!  For several years we flew in the mornings and evenings only. During the day we sat below the wings and sweared at the thermals. But once: I flew to Partizanske airport on Friday evening.  The ext day we wants to fly to Rajec and Ružomberok, but we were very slow to start and started at 11:00am.  It was in August and was a really hot day. I asked my friend: Are you sure, you can fly now? He answered: Yes, its a nice day. Then we flew. Through the mountains. Over the mountain Kľak we were at 1700m MSL. In front of us was a valley with a BIG thermal cloud (cummulus). My friend pulled the control bar and he rapidly decended through the center of this cloud. I pulled my control bar too and sped up. I was in a bit of a panic! It was my first flight mid-day, my engine was free runing, my control bar was pulled into my stomach - I had a speed bar (bent so it could be pulled around my chest)!!! but I was still climbing at 2m/s up! We didn't have radios back then and I couldn't tell my friend that I had a problem. When I began to not be able to see the ground well I knew I was in the cloud and had a big problem!  I must to do something immediatelly. Now I was climbing at about 3m/s!!! I decided to perform an emergency spiral descent. I slid my control bar to the right. The whole time I had it pulled into my stomach, because if I would let it out it a little, I would climb rapidly. When I moved out of the centre, I began the spiral. I dont know how many G-s I had, but I felt as heavy as an elephant. I descended to 200m AGL and I started to search my friend, who didnt know about my problems. It was my first time in this area and I didnt know where the airport or where my friend was.  So, I flew an S pattern up the valley and I found my friend at the airport.  I landed there and we went to near pub for a some bears... On that day I got to know in practice, that it is possible to fly during a thermal day...

  • ULtrikepilot

    Thanks for starting this topic W.E.  I have had many awesome soaring flights in my previously owned NW ATF/Simonini 2 plus/17M Stratus wing with both engine off or at idle.  However, almost all of those were from thermic activity and not from orographic (ridge) lift because I live in the flat lands.  I have not yet attempted to work thermals in my new NW Maverick/JCV-360/13M wing as it is still fairly new to me and due to higher wing loading, sink rate, and speed I would need to get into some broad fat thermals to really be able to do much.

    I do not claim to be an expert at coring thermals but I have had more success working them in HGs than in my ATF trike.  Probably a few reasons for that.  You have a broader range on control in both pitch and roll in a HG than on a trike.  You generally have higher wing loading and sink rate in a soaring trike than in HG.  We all know that lift must exceed normal sink rate for positive altitude gain.  Lastly even small soaring trikes generate more drag than the most draggy HG harness. This of course translates into deteriorated L/D performance.  I also think you can turn more efficiently (tighter coring circles) in a HG than in a soaring trike, perhaps particularly important with tighter bullet thermals.  Having said all that, it is still possible to thermal and have a blast in a soaring trike.  I really enjoy working lift if/when it is available.

    Unfortunately, I don't think I have any inflight video of soaring flights but I will check as I have many GB of raw video I have not yet attempted to extract & edit.

    I will relate one of the scariest experiences I had on my ATF a couple years ago flying at a private fly-in in upstate NY. As a preface let me say that due to my HG background I normally do not shy away from mid-day flying so some times with my ATF I found my self flying at peak of mid-day when all the other trikers were on the ground.  Really all that says is that flying in fairly heavy thermal activity is normally within my comfort zone but clearly not in the comfort zone of some others I fly with.  Well one day I took off from my friends turf strip and immediately upon crossing over the fence at about  12 to 15' AGL I hit a boomer of a thermal perhaps just lifting off.  My ATF pitched up at a very steep (at least 70 to 80deg) attitude. I immediately stuffed the bar into my abdomen and prayed my engine would not quit.  I was probably at that attitude for at least 5-6 secs after which I leveled off into a serious elevator to heaven. That initial very steep yet sustained attitude so low to the ground shook me up a bit.  Had my engine quit I doubt I would have been able to recover.  In hind sight I did not fully appreciate all conditions prior to rotating.  There was a freshly tilled field (black soil with high OM content) immediately on other side of fence that had been baking in the sun for several hours with prevalent wind drifting toward the runway (partially shaded turf terrain).  Dried out black soil is almost like black top in terms of its ability to absorb and release solar energy.

    So yes choosing to fly a soaring trike in some what more mellow thermal conditions than one might fly a HG in is really a very good idea especially when you are still getting the feel for what your little soaring trike can do.  What I have discovered is that many trike pilots that do not have a HG background tend to dislike trike flying in thermal turbulence.  Also not all former HG pilots are bold about their soaring flights with soaring trikes.  Due to the much lower wing loading with a soaring trike you will definitely feel (and have to react to) all turbulence related to thermic or mech turb conditions than one would with a LSA with smaller blade style wing.  Pilots transitioning from LSA to soaring trikes need to be aware of that and exercise good judgement on suitable flying conditions.  Some of the best thermal soaring flights had me going up at least 1000 to 1200 fpm engine off and that can really get you stoked.

    Combining thermal soaring and XC, well that is easier said than done in my experience.  One needs to be in an area with broad consistent lift which does not always happen in the east. What I hope to gain more experience in is playing with ridge lift on a soaring trike.  I think that could be a blast.  Have been talking with W.E. about that incredible Mission range (predominantly oriented N & S) in MT just east of where he lives.  Geez, if I lived out there I think I'd be checking that out most weekends with suitable winds.

    Hey, XC, you have been talking about getting a soaring trike. With your background as HG pilot, you would love it!!  I can also imagine there must be some great areas in coastal CA and inland ridges with predominantly westerlies coming in and one could fly ALL day with perhaps burning no more than a couple L of fuel.  You should get one.

  • XC Triker

    Wow Jozinko, that sounds hairy--  especially the part about drinking the bears  ;)  

    Sounds like you were in Cloud Suck!  That's not thermalling, that's nuts.

    I hear there are Drop Bears in Australia.  I'll buy you one and you can drink him.  We'll watch from a distance away and have a few beers.  ;)

    Sorry, couldn't resist--  I love you man!  I love the fact that you, out of all your friends try and communicate to us in our language when none of us can even attempt yours.  Just picturing you drinking a bear though ....  ;)

  • XC Triker

    Great input ULT !  I will get a soaring trike eventually, but I really intend to go electric if possible.  Ken just emailed me a parts trike we could convert to electric ...  Yes, there is some great soaring in Calif-- ridge and Mountain and combo ;)  After all, we invented soaring in HGs out here  ;)

  • white eagle

     really good stuff here to read thanks sally  xc  joz  and ul.  well i might say that for alot of reasons the electrics appeal to me as well.lighter wing loading ; no fuel' thrust reliability. the nice thing i think about a soaring trike is that you dont have to leap off some cliff in some godforsaken untested air after waiting for hours for the wind direction to change. pluss on a good calm day you can get a few hours of fun flying in as oposed to hang gliding the best you could hope for is a good sled ride.My best choice of thermalling would be picking up some late afternoon thermal lift when you know that the thermal activity is going to die down and not get significantly stronger.xc s ridge soaring areas on the coast with that thick air i think is some of the best in the world.the thermal lift on the coastline should be generally milder thermals. but then theres that owens valley. cant say that i would want to get into wave lift in a trike.ive heard of some pretty hairy rides even in a hang glider.ul that mission range sure does look appealing but i think i will still test those waters gracefully in some calm conditions and work my way up. sure wouldnt want to get blown over the backside there? jozinko have to agree that sure sounded like classic cloud suck. you certainly did the right thing to get out of it. that was some serious doo doo.thats one thing in my soaring trike with that great big 225 sq ft wing that i would definatly be worried about. (CLOUD SUCK) killed a hang glider pilot i use to know.and as in uls boomer on take off story (whew that would of scared the begezzys out of me. so there again a great piece of information to learn from.generally unless youre being towed a hang glider pilot is not climbing at high AOA near the ground but usually sucking in the bar for a hot lz.So i could see that as a potential danger zone in a soaring trike being flown by someone that is used to hang gliding. it could easily be overlooked in youre flight plan getting wacked by a big bubble off some trigger point while taking off at high AOA.With my big floaty falcon 225 tandem wing i have kinda been engineerig my flying goals . in that thick coastal sea air a gentle consistant ocean breeze ridgelift condition would be awesome.but the big boomer thermals i remember in the high desert of new mexico ( usually bigger in width than a football stadium and towering into a massive cummie) Iam pretty sure my soaring trike does not belong there.one thing that concerns me is the ability to pitch in and stuff the bar for penitration in the seated trike with that big wing. sally i would be interested in your thoughts on the zenoah g-25   22 hp motor on youre old sky cycle.It's the same engine i have. same motor mount and engine we used on the eagle xl and we had a lot of problems with them back in the 80s. they develope good thrust with a wooden 54/24 prop.lots of siezing and vibration problems so we switched and had better luck with the cyunnas? definatly wouldnt want to get low scratching some ridge lift and find i aint got no motor to get back home. althogh that west face of the mission range is quite flat with 30 miles of uniterupted vertical slopes up to 9000 ft, finding a suitable lz getting dumped out would be not much of a problem. Charlie Parker any chance of you weighing in here id be curious of what you would have to say with youre hang gliding exsperience and flying youre dragon fly?ive always found the best way for me to learn is on the ground by those who have the experience.

  • rohayes00

    Video of me thermalling my friends Airborne T-Lite. The t-lite is designed as a thermalling trike, and I found it very similiar to flying a hang glider. The wing is a beefed up sting HG, I believe. The sink rate is suprisingly good, and the wing is intuitive and easy to thermal, with minimal high-siding. The wing is very light in roll, with excellent responses. A couple of times I have had the engine not start after a particularly long time off (more than 30min). I think the fuel drains back out of the bulb and you cannot reach it from the seat, but it has never been a problem. Fly them like a hang glider, with options to land at all times, and things will be sweet! Once landed, simply pump the fuel up, start the engine and fly home!

     

  • ULtrikepilot

    Thanks a lot Rohayes for adding your video here.  I really enjoyed it.  I am sure that the T-Lite is a blast to soar in.  BTW, it should be possible to prevent fuel from draining from carb with a check valve in line.  Then it should be no worries on restarting inflight when needed.  Please consider joining the UL trikes group.  We can always benefit from the perspective of trike pilots that fly on the lighter end of aviation.  thanks again.  Ult.

  • cburg

    CX Triker,

    Good comments.

    Regarding the handling qualities in rough air I’ve found a drop-down / torque arm bracket (pivot below the keel) enhances the flying qualities, and greatly reduce the undesirable traits you mentioned.  I posted numerous sketches and posted on this subject on Trikepilot.com recently.  It’s more applicable to light trikes.

     

  • Jozinko

    ahahahahahhahaa David, now I know what you mean "Sorry for Bears comment" in email... :)))

    We are laughing with my wife!!!!

    We will to drink the Slivovica which I will bring... then we will be able to drink a BEAR too :))))

  • Jozinko

    Nice video Rohayes. I saw it on YT or FB before. With my heavy trike I seldom can switch off my engine. Usually Im using thermal for a cheap lift up.

  • white eagle

    c burg   rohayes  i would like to say thank you so much for responding here. its great to have some imput from the enourmous amount of exsperience you guys have. i flew hang gliders for alot of years but i also was a sled ride king. did alot of wire launches but i generally was very conservitive about the conditions i flew in.ive had the bar pulled out of my hands and been bouced into an upright a few times in strong lift.iam fairly new to my soaring trike so i really like the imput about wondering into stronger lift and thermals. i asumed that it would be simular to what i exsperienced in hang glider but i also understand there is some differences like the ability to stuff the bar or the drag created by the trike. not afraid to get my ass kicked but really dont want to get my ass kicked if you know what i mean so any embelisment here is a good tool and greatly appreciated.

  • white eagle

    ps c burg i did follow a bit lurking tps about the torque arm bracket. cant say i fully understood it though. could you post a little about that here. is that bracket so that you have a little yaw in the turn    please explain?